• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

Greetings, and welcome to another Tinto Maps! This week we will be taking a look at Carpathia and the Balkans! It will most likely be an interesting region to take a look at, with a lot of passion involved… So I’ll just make an initial friendly reminder to keep a civil discussion, as in the latest Tinto Maps, as that’s the easiest way for us to read and gather your feedback, and improve the region in a future iteration. And now, let’s start with the maps!

Countries:
Countries.png

Carpathia and the Balkans start in a very interesting situation. The Kingdom of Hungary probably stands as the most powerful country in 1337, but that only happened after the recovery of the royal power enforced by Charles I Robert of the House of Anjou, who reined in the powerful Hungarian nobility. To the south, the power that is on the rise is the Kingdom of Serbia, ruled by Stefan Uroš IV Dušan, who has set his eyes on his neighbors to expand his power. The Byzantine Empire, meanwhile, is in a difficult position, as internal struggles ended in Andronikos III being crowned sole emperor, at the cost of dividing the realm; both Serbia and Bulgaria have in the past pressed over the bordering lands, while the Ottomans have very recently conquered Nicomedia. The control over the Southern Balkans is also very fractioned, with a branch of the Anjou ruling over Albania, the Despotate of Epirus under the nominal rule of Byzantium as a vassal, Athens, Neopatria and Salona as vassals of the Aragonese Kings of Sicily, Anjou protectorates over Achaia and Naxos, and only nominal Byzantine control over Southern Morea. It’s also noticeable the presence of the Republics of Venice and Genoa, which control several outposts over the Adriatic and Aegean Seas. A final note: in previous maps, Moldavia was shown in the map, but we’ve removed it from it, and it will most likely spawn through a chain of events in the 1340s.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The House of Anjou rules over Naples, Hungary, Albania, Achaia, and Cephalonia; they’re truly invested in their push for supremacy over the region. Apart from that, each country is ruled by different dynasties, except for Athens and Neopatria, ruled by the House of Aragón-Barcelona.

Locations:
Locations 1.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png
This week we’re posting the general map of the region, along with some more detailed maps, that can be seen if you click on the spoiler button. A starting comment is that the location density of Hungary is noticeably not very high; the reason is that it was one of the first European maps that we made, and we based it upon the historical counties. Therefore, I’m already saying in advance that this will be an area that we want to give more density when we do the review of the region; any help regarding that is welcome. Apart from that, you may notice on the more detailed maps that Crete appears in one, while not being present in the previous one; because of the zooming, the island will appear next week along with Cyprus, but I wanted to make an early sneak peek of the locations, given that is possible with this closer zoom level. Apart from that, I’m also saying in advance that we will make an important review of the Aegean Islands, so do not take them as a reference for anything, please.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Provinces! Nothing outstanding to be commented on here; as usual, we’re open to any feedback regarding them.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain! The climate of the region is mostly divided between Continental and Mediterranean, with some warmer and some colder regions. Regarding the topography, the Carpathian mountains are famously important and strategic, while the Balkans are a quite hilly and mountainous region, which is also greatly covered by woods and forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Here comes the fun part of the DD: The cultural division of the Balkans! A few comments:
  1. Hungary is full of different minorities. Transylvania, especially, is an interesting place: there we have a mix of ‘Hungarians’, ‘Transylvanians’ (which are the Romanian-speaking inhabitants of the region), ‘Transylvanian Germans’, and ‘Szekely’ people.
  2. We have divided the Southern Slavic-speaking region into their dialectal families of Slovene, Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian.
  3. The Southern Balkans are mostly divided among Bulgarian, Albanian, and Greek cultures.
  4. We’re also portraying plenty of other cultures, such as Dalmatians, Aromanians, Sclavenes, Arvanites, Cumans, Jasz, or Ashkenazi and Romanyoti Jews.

Religions:
Religion.png

This one is also interesting. Apart from the divide between Western Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, we have the Krstjani in Bosnia, Bogomils (the pink stripes both in Bosnia and Macedonia), and Paulicians in Thrace. The Jewish populations do not pass the threshold percentage to appear on the map, but there are plenty of communities across the region.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

The materials of the region. Something very noticeable is the richness of minerals, with plenty of Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead, Gold, and Silver. Specifically, Slovakia is very rich, and you definitely want more settlers to migrate to the region, and exploit its resources. The region is also very rich in agricultural resources, as you can see.

Markets:
Markets.png

The region is mostly divided among four markets: Venice, Pest, Ragusa and Constantinople.

Country and Location population:
Population 1.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Population 4.png
Country and location population (which I’ve also sub-divided, and is under the Spoiler button).

And that’s all of today! I hope that you find the region interesting; we certainly think that it is. Next week we will go further south, and we will take a look at the Syrian Levant and Egypt. Cheers!
 
  • 193Like
  • 69Love
  • 7
  • 4
  • 3
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
I think you could change the location name for Campulung Muscel to just Muscel, seeing as Campulung is the name of the town and Muscel is the name of roughly that region. The town is called Campulung Muscel just to differentiate between it and the Moldovan Campulung.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Those are Slovenes.
I think I see that now, sorry for the initial confusion. In the case that those populations are Slovenes, what is the justification for a significant minority in Zalavar? The county will hopefully get a bit of a rework, but the historical county of Zala included only the area of Lendava which would have in the past been majority Hungarian, and just the small countryside may not account for that much. I do agree with the Murska Sobota and St. Gotthard Slovenes though.

Source: Changing Ethnic Patterns of the Carpatho–PannonianArea from the Late 15th until the Early 21st Century
Interactive Map: Nyelvi térszerkezet a 15. század végén
 
  • 3
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Is Thasos marble? I can't quite read it, but if it isn't it definitely should be.
I'm also surprised at how seemingly passable the Pindos mountains are. I've driven through the area a few times and thems some big mountains.
Yes, it's marble.
 
  • 13
  • 9Like
Reactions:
Pirot region was not part of Bulgaria since 1330 tho, we know border of Vidin was due to Ottomans keeping former borders and using them as internal ones. Also Prince Lazar also had his vassal Momchilo built his fortress there.

https://www.academia.edu/40769349/Живојин_Андрејић_1_Српска_средњовековна_жупа_Тимок_2_Живопис_припрате_и_у_кулама_цркве_Свете_Богородице_у_Доњој_Каменици
Stanicenje.png
\
Staničenje is a village mere kilometers from Pirot, and it was definitely in Bulgarian hands after 1330. Would be extremely bizarre for it to have been under Bulgarian control yet not Pirot. Serbian source, by the way.
 
  • 9Like
  • 2
Reactions:
Finally a point I already made in a separate thread. I think the locations in the Kingdom of Hungary, Moldavia and Wallachia are absolutely massive compared to every single surrounding area. I think it looks absolutely atrocious.

The reason I think in the case of the Kingdom of Hungary is that you have chosen the counties as locations. Thats I think a very bad decisions - the counties should be the provinces. There never existed a somogy province encompassing all of southern Transdanubia. Somogy county was your Segesd and Somogyvár location.

I suggest a rework of the kingdom of Hungary based on this map depincting the Kingdom during the reign of Louis I (1342-1382):
View attachment 1158678

Edit: I want to stress that I want province sizes and density comparable to Poland and Serbia. Absolutely not Germany or Italy.
Citing myself:

A starting comment is that the location density of Hungary is noticeably not very high; the reason is that it was one of the first European maps that we made, and we based it upon the historical counties. Therefore, I’m already saying in advance that this will be an area that we want to give more density when we do the review of the region; any help regarding that is welcome.

Thanks for the feedback, nonetheless.
 
  • 43Like
  • 7Haha
  • 3Love
  • 2
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Spelling mistakes with hungarian province and location names:
Province of Maramaros. Correct one: Máramaros.
Province of Bácsa. Correct one: Bácska
No it is correct, location is named based of town

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bač_Fortress
No its not. The region would be in hungarian Bácska, or in serbian Bačka. I very highly doubt its named after a town. Not to mention the town in hungarian would also be Bács, not Bácsa.
 
  • 5Like
  • 1
Reactions:
When did the Germans get to Transylvania?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Hi @Pavia, I'm wondering if the southeastern part of the Holy Roman Empire (Austria and Slovenia) will be considered part of the presentation of the Holy Roman Empire Tinto maps? In the event that yes, I would not mind commenting on this area and making suggestions in this tread, I would prefer them when this is addressed. Otherwise, the maps look good, maybe only Hungary does not have the same density of provinces compared to the Balkans, and the colors of the cultures of Bulgarians, Greeks and Turks are indistinguishable. Maybe I would give the Bulgarians light purple, the Greeks light apricot, and the Turks light teal.
Yes, it will be part of the HRE Tinto Maps.
 
  • 18
  • 12Like
Reactions:
I commented before too but I'm posting again to note the presence of a Jewish community that should exist in the city of Ioannina, granted religious freedom by chrysobull of Emperor Andronikos II a couple decades before the game's start.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
I really wish Romani people could be added to the game but I suppose addition and proper representation of the Romani people would require a separate mechanic to properly display the difference between these peoples and the surrounding European cultures. Simple culture group mechanics may not suffice. Given the timescale of this game, and that colonization becomes a very important part of the gameplay later on - will there be a system depicting race? I know that it's a very convoluted thing to depict but it helps portray the population dynamics in the colonial-era new world much more efficiently as new cultures emerge. The same mechanic can thus portray Romani people more accurately, but then again, nested grouping of pops might be a bit too crazy.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Greetings, and welcome to another Tinto Maps! This week we will be taking a look at Carpathia and the Balkans! It will most likely be an interesting region to take a look at, with a lot of passion involved… So I’ll just make an initial friendly reminder to keep a civil discussion, as in the latest Tinto Maps, as that’s the easiest way for us to read and gather your feedback, and improve the region in a future iteration. And now, let’s start with the maps!

Countries:
View attachment 1158260
Carpathia and the Balkans start in a very interesting situation. The Kingdom of Hungary probably stands as the most powerful country in 1337, but that only happened after the recovery of the royal power enforced by Charles I Robert of the House of Anjou, who reined in the powerful Hungarian nobility. To the south, the power that is on the rise is the Kingdom of Serbia, ruled by Stefan Uroš IV Dušan, who has set his eyes on his neighbors to expand his power. The Byzantine Empire, meanwhile, is in a difficult position, as internal struggles ended in Andronikos III being crowned sole emperor, at the cost of dividing the realm; both Serbia and Bulgaria have in the past pressed over the bordering lands, while the Ottomans have very recently conquered Nicomedia. The control over the Southern Balkans is also very fractioned, with a branch of the Anjou ruling over Albania, the Despotate of Epirus under the nominal rule of Byzantium as a vassal, Athens, Neopatria and Salona as vassals of the Aragonese Kings of Sicily, Anjou protectorates over Achaia and Naxos, and only nominal Byzantine control over Southern Morea. It’s also noticeable the presence of the Republics of Venice and Genoa, which control several outposts over the Adriatic and Aegean Seas. A final note: in previous maps, Moldavia was shown in the map, but we’ve removed it from it, and it will most likely spawn through a chain of events in the 1340s.

Dynasties:
View attachment 1158528
The House of Anjou rules over Naples, Hungary, Albania, Achaia, and Cephalonia; they’re truly invested in their push for supremacy over the region. Apart from that, each country is ruled by different dynasties, except for Athens and Neopatria, ruled by the House of Aragón-Barcelona.

Locations:
View attachment 1158264
This week we’re posting the general map of the region, along with some more detailed maps, that can be seen if you click on the spoiler button. A starting comment is that the location density of Hungary is noticeably not very high; the reason is that it was one of the first European maps that we made, and we based it upon the historical counties. Therefore, I’m already saying in advance that this will be an area that we want to give more density when we do the review of the region; any help regarding that is welcome. Apart from that, you may notice on the more detailed maps that Crete appears in one, while not being present in the previous one; because of the zooming, the island will appear next week along with Cyprus, but I wanted to make an early sneak peek of the locations, given that is possible with this closer zoom level. Apart from that, I’m also saying in advance that we will make an important review of the Aegean Islands, so do not take them as a reference for anything, please.

Provinces:
View attachment 1158268
Provinces! Nothing outstanding to be commented on here; as usual, we’re open to any feedback regarding them.

Terrain:
View attachment 1158270
View attachment 1158271
View attachment 1158272
Terrain! The climate of the region is mostly divided between Continental and Mediterranean, with some warmer and some colder regions. Regarding the topography, the Carpathian mountains are famously important and strategic, while the Balkans are a quite hilly and mountainous region, which is also greatly covered by woods and forests.

Cultures:
View attachment 1158273
Here comes the fun part of the DD: The cultural division of the Balkans! A few comments:
  1. Hungary is full of different minorities. Transylvania, especially, is an interesting place: there we have a mix of ‘Hungarians’, ‘Transylvanians’ (which are the Romanian-speaking inhabitants of the region), ‘Transylvanian Germans’, and ‘Szekely’ people.
  2. We have divided the Southern Slavic-speaking region into their dialectal families of Slovene, Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian.
  3. The Southern Balkans are mostly divided among Bulgarian, Albanian, and Greek cultures.
  4. We’re also portraying plenty of other cultures, such as Dalmatians, Aromanians, Sclavenes, Arvanites, Cumans, Jasz, or Ashkenazi and Romanyoti Jews.

Religions:
View attachment 1158274
This one is also interesting. Apart from the divide between Western Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, we have the Krstjani in Bosnia, Bogomils (the pink stripes both in Bosnia and Macedonia), and Paulicians in Thrace. The Jewish populations do not pass the threshold percentage to appear on the map, but there are plenty of communities across the region.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1158275
The materials of the region. Something very noticeable is the richness of minerals, with plenty of Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead, Gold, and Silver. Specifically, Slovakia is very rich, and you definitely want more settlers to migrate to the region, and exploit its resources. The region is also very rich in agricultural resources, as you can see.

Markets:
View attachment 1158276
The region is mostly divided among four markets: Venice, Pest, Ragusa and Constantinople.

Country and Location population:
View attachment 1158277
Country and location population (which I’ve also sub-divided, and is under the Spoiler button).

And that’s all of today! I hope that you find the region interesting; we certainly think that it is. Next week we will go further south, and we will take a look at the Syrian Levant and Egypt. Cheers!

‘We’re also portraying plenty of other cultures, such as Dalmatians, Aromanians, Sclavenes, Arvanites, Cumans, Jasz, or Ashkenazi and Romanyoti Jews.’ —
I know it maybe a bit hard to implement due to a lack of resources on the exact population and location of the people, but are you also going to implement Romani pops throughout the Southern Balkans, Anatolia or Greece as they have been recorded as being present in parts of the Balkans from the start of the 13th century, receiving further documentation around the mid 1300’s and early 1400’s through regions such as Carpathia and Bohemia, eventually receiving special statuses in some places throughout Europe like on Corfu where they got awarded their own serfdom, or then being banned/expelled out right across many parts of Europe such as England. I think it would give great flavour to the Romanian principalities, as the Romani migration into medieval Romania coincided with the crumbling of the Byzantines during the 1300’s and led to the eventual mass enslavement of the Roma across various parts of Romania. I’ll list some resources of mine about the migration into the Balkans, Carpathia and Bohemia below, but there are much more academic works regarding this topic.
Maybe adding some events instead of actual pops themselves would be optimal and maximise game flavour of the region and Europe as a whole? Or you could just add minute populations of them around the region like how you have down with the Jews around Europe. I can provide sources for my claims in response. Anyhow great diary as always thank you Pavia!
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Spelling mistakes with hungarian province and location names:
Province of Maramaros. Correct one: Máramaros.
Province of Bácsa. Correct one: Bácska

No its not. The region would be in hungarian Bácska, or in serbian Bačka. I very highly doubt its named after a town. Not to mention the town in hungarian would also be Bács, not Bácsa.
Ah you were talking about province.. Then yeah you are right. I was looking at locations.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Spelling mistakes with hungarian province and location names:
Province of Maramaros. Correct one: Máramaros.
Province of Bácsa. Correct one: Bácska

No its not. The region would be in hungarian Bácska, or in serbian Bačka. I very highly doubt its named after a town. Not to mention the town in hungarian would also be Bács, not Bácsa.
The region did get its name after the fort, much like many of the original counties of the KoH. Nevertheless, it's definitely not Bácsa.
 
Bosnia as a culture or ethnic group did not exist in 1337. It was only after religious conversion and turkification of the locals that they appear that too after 1460. I am being impartial because I am neither from the Balkans nor follow any form of christianity or islam. So having bosnian appear so many years ago is like having Russian identity in 1300
 
  • 12
  • 1Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
Rusyn culture was propagated by the Habsburgs to undermine Russian and Ukrainian nationalisms, and Transylvanian is an eyesore too
 
  • 8
  • 4
  • 1Like
Reactions: