Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

[Dzogli]

Will the we get unique stuff for Serbian church since to this day they follow pagan traditions? They were allowed by the church to make it easier for them to convert the population, some of them are traditions that honor pagan gods but just done in the name of saints, seems too cool to be left out imo.

 

[Nikicaga]

There are also Transylvanian Germans in Srebrenica, Budimlja, Mitrovica, and Novo Brdo.

Germans very very important miners everywhere in medieval Serbia - from the current locations, they should also exist in Kruševac (representing the Koznik mines), Krupanj, Kučevo and Rudnik. In addition, Novo Brdo should have a nicely-sized Dalmatian population, representing the Ragusan merchant colony of Janjevo, and small Dalmatian populations in most locations in West Serbia (notably Ras/Trgovište), Užice, Pljevlja, Prijepolje and Višegrad, as well as Rudnik, Kruševac and Niš for the same reason.

Niš should also have a small Greek and Jewish minority, and probably be more populated than nearby locations

 

[Ispil]

This is more pertaining to the religion TT, but did you give autocephaly to Serbia yet?

 

[TheAlabrehon]

A few romanian provinces have some mistakes. They should be:
Cudalvi -> Cudalbi
Rușii de Vede -> Roșiorii de Vede
Hateg -> Hațeg
Strimba -> Strîmba
I don't know if this is a font thing, but the letter ă has a rounded "hat", not sharp as â and î.
Also why is the dynasty named Basarabs instead of Basarab?

 

[Zaragoza]

Finally, I also miss two minorities:

1. There should be some small jewish population in some western towns. Judenburg, in Austria, is an example (maybe not in today's focus), but there were more communities in some western Hungarian towns.
2. Gypsies were starting to enter the Balkans around game start. Their migrations could add some flavor now there is an in-game population model

 

[StefanDruga]

A few romanian provinces have some mistakes. They should be:
Cudalvi -> Cudalbi
Rușii de Vede -> Roșiorii de Vede
Hateg -> Hațeg
Strimba -> Strîmba
I don't know if this is a font thing, but the letter ă has a rounded "hat", not sharp as â and î.
Also why is the dynasty named Basarabs instead of Basarab?

Roșiorii de Vede was called Rușii de Vede up until the interwar period.

 

[Bulletbob]

If you want to have Bosnian as a distinct culture, it should not be this homogeneous, only central parts would be populated by Bosnians as you see them. Southern parts (Hum) only came to be part of Bosnia some 11 years earlier, and it was populated mostly by Orthodox Serbs.

Pelješac should be part of Republic of Ragusa. It was bought from Serbia after Stefan Dušan came to power. Ragusa would pay yearly tribute to Serbian kings/tzars, and later to there successors, Bosnian kings.
Is there a way to split Ragusa location into at least two locations? Territories around city of Dubrovnik where bought from Bosnia in early XV century.

And as for that yearly tribute that I mentioned, will it be represented in the game in some capacity?
If you want I could provide some historiacl sources.

Southern parts of Bosnia (Hum) were known to have early Serbian Orthodox influence through the presence of churches there, but discussing whether there was a large ethno-linguistic majority of them at this time is difficult, so I would say a striped Serbian minority in Hum would probably be sufficient. Definitely more accurate than 100% Bosnian.

 

[Pavía]

I hope it's not too guaranteed that his death will result in the slow collapse of his empire, at least.

We prefer to avoid heavy railroads; so it should be avoidable (as the forming of the Serbian Empire, in the first place).

 

[Mr. Overextension]

Alright, got time to look over these locations more in depth so here we go
apologies if I'm getting annoying

- Argyrokastro can alternatively be called 'Deropolis' or 'Dropoli'
- While Preveza is attested since the 1200s, the region was still moreso associated with the nearby abandoned Nikopolis
- Edirne could do with losing its eastern half, either to Byzantium or as a new prov called Saranta Ekklisies
- With the above in mind, Edirne and Evros could be merged into 1 province, either called Thrace to cater to modern regional conceptions or Macedonia, to cater to the Byzantine ones, or Edirne, for the Ottomans
- Similarly, Lower Macedonia can be called Strymon, and Upper Macedonia Pindos
- Alexandroupolis in Evros was founded after WW1 to honor King Alexander of Greece, the location should be called Didymoteicho
- Drama was called Dyrama at the time
- Lesbos is the name of the entire island, the name of the most prominent settlement there at the time is Molyvos
- Parga is a good name but an alternative you could use for that place is Thesprotia
- Komotini existed, but it was a new settlement at the time, the place should take after Mosynopolis nearby
- Euboea at the time was called Euripos
- Instead of naming the entire North Aegean after one of its islands, maybe use Voreio Aigaio instead
- Similarly for Naxos, it can be called Kyklades / Kykladai
- Tinos was more prominent than Mykonos within the confines of that location
- +my previous comments abt Andravida and Tripolitsa


About production, now
- Thebes should produce dyes or silk
- Chios could produce fruit (or maybe medicaments? idk abt that) to represent the local production of mastic, which was important enough to be considered a personal monopoly of both the Byzantine Emperor and the Ottoman Sultan when either controlled the island
- I'm assuming gems represent the silversmithing tradition of the city of Ioannina, though of note the region is also fairly known for its meat and cheese (the silversmithing SHOULD take precedent though, yeah)
- Arta should produce fruit
- Corinth could have marble or stone to represent the incessant recycling of material from ancient temples to build forts and the such in the region, like in the Acrocorinth or the Hexamilion

 

[Dzogli]

We prefer to avoid heavy railroads; so it should be avoidable (as the forming of the Serbian Empire, in the first place).

It's avoidable means just save scum so Dusan lives and get a better heir then Uros V.

 

[aantia]

The default will most likely be 'Wikipedia standard' (that means, either English or their current endonym). There might be some exceptions for this, of course, but we also want to have a game rule set for 'full English' play, if some players prefer that to the cultural dynamic names. Feel free to post inconsistencies, and we will try to have them incorporated.

Thank you so much for confirming this! One of Johan's comments a while ago had me really worried.
Dynamic names are fun, but I like readability and knowing where places are better.

 

[and7rew]

Were Bosnians really separate from Serbians or Croats at that point in time? Wasn't a Bosnian cultural identity only shaped later, during the ottoman times?

I wonder if it would be possible to have bosnians appear from serbians and croats that convert to any muslim denomination? Does the code allow this?

 

[Bulletbob]

A few things I noticed regarding locations in modern Serbia borders, from north to south:

1. Change Zenta to Subotica (don't know the Hungarian name), Subotica is more important and one of the bigger cities in Vojvodina
2. Can't read the location name above Kovin, west of Timisoara, what is it?
3. Kovin is even today a small town, not bigger than 10k inhabitants, better to change it to Pančevo (wiki link - Pančevo was first mentioned in 1153 and was described as an important mercantile place)
4. Debrc is a small village south of the Sava, only known because of a medieval church and nothing else. The location should either be changed to Novi Sad, or Srem (Syrmia, Szerem), as Srem is geographically right in between Sava and Danube
5. Instead of Jagodina (not sure if it is, but looks like it), place Kragujevac, it was a settlement already settled by the end of 12th century
6. Ravno - first time hearing of this, Zaječar much better suited, 3 Roman emperors were born there
7. Trgovište - not to be confused with Romanian Targoviste, Ras or Raška would be much much better
8. Peč should be Peć
9. Glubočica can be Leskovac instead, Leskovac is just center of the area. If not, then Dubočica is most commonly used

Provinces:

1. Donji-Kraji sounds very unnatural, maybe just Krajina?
2. Usora and Soli - Slavonija?
4. As per the current locations - Syrmia - existing + Debrc, Mačva - Krupanj, Valjevo, Gradac, Belgrad, Šumadija - Smederevo, Rudnik, Jagodina, Žiča, Braničevo - existing + Stalać, Niš - existing + Kruševac, Toplica can be scrapped
5. Podrinje can be renamed to Hercegovina
6. Serbian / Slavic version of Illyria is Ilirija

The province changes you suggested are not correct.

1. Donji-Kraj was the Medieval Bosnian name for this area.
2. Ditto with Usora and Soli, Slavonija is a part of Croatia further north.
5. Podrinje is the correct name for the area in this period. Hercegovina is what Hum came to be known as following the rule of Herceg-Stjepan Kosaca in 1449.

 

[Paulatim]

Great work as usual. Did you implement a pop of Greek peasants (or even tribesmen...) following the hellenic religion in the middle finger of peleponnesian peninsula? I know they were most probably fully converted by the year 1000, but who knows. I can envision one or two very isolated villages of fishermen following the old ways until much later, even 1350...

 

[cumaethor]

If I remember correctly Johan mentioned that rivers will have impact on proximity and trade. But in none of Tinto Maps posts we saw rivers have any impact on trade. Only coast propagate proximity now, major rivers should as well.

 

[Dieselface]

Can I get a source on Athens having a bigger population than Constantinople in 1337?

 

[Kacika]

With the risk that all of these things have already been pointed out, here are my few quite basic comments:

I noticed a couple typos, Győr is written as Györ, and Kolozsvár is written as Koloszvár

The location names around Hungary (maybe other places too, but I'm less familiar with them) are sometimes names of towns, sometimes names of areas/regions, I don't know if this is a concern in any way, just wanted to point it out

The name "Budapest" is anachronistic to the period, and as a province name it is quite weird even today, it should be simply Pest

 

[Conchodebar]

Alexandroupoli shouldn't exist here, it was founded in the 19th century by the Ottomans as Dedeağaç, renamed in honor of king Alexander when it was reconquered by the Greeks in 1920

 

[Goran42069]

We didn't have the proper tools to portray them correctly, I think. Maybe we could have them, but there are a couple of things that we'd need to have first, and I'm not entirely sure if we'll get them.

I'm assuming by proper tools you mean having them migrate a lot even outside of markets and borders ? Regardless i think even just having romani pops in the places that historically had a big romani population is better than not having them at all.

 

[Ispil]

It's avoidable means just save scum so Dusan lives and get a better heir then Uros V.

If you read the character TT, you'd see that characters aren't randomly generated when necessary and that there's an actual representation of, say, the royal family in this case. Plus given that Uroš V was born in 1336, no amount of savescumming will save you from his rule. You just have to set the realm up properly so that it holds together past his rule.