Tinto Maps Special Edition - 6th of January 2025 - The World

[matfer13]

Why is Arborea a republic? I can sorta understand the various Italian Signorias being categorized as such but the Judges of Sardinia were basically monarchs

 

[pescinese97]

@Pavía Here's a review I made of the natural harbours of Italy:
-Venice, Chioggia, Udine and Aquileia all have very good harbours, these four locations share the Marano and Venetian lagoons which are arguably the best lagoons in the world for docking purposes, the Alps protect them from the northern winds, they are deep enough to be sailed by modern cargo boats(keep in mind that some parts the lagoons that are quite shallow nowdays used to be deeper in 1337 due to land reclamation projects done over time) and are quite big, the fact that they are lagoons naturally protects them from the worst waves of the Adriatic sea and the rivers that flow inside help them getting rid of some salt in the water therefore making the wood of the hulls last longer, Marano is overall smaller than Venice therefore offers less advantages
-Trieste, Rovinj, Pola and Rijeka also have small but very good harbours thanks to the natural bays of Istria and the gulf of Trieste(Aquileia could also take advantage of this if the have Monfalcone)
-the only decent harbour on the Northern Adriatic coast should be Ancona, while in the south Brindisi is by far the best one on the whole coastline followed by Otranto(which is part of Lecce) a small but good harbour and finally Manfredonia which although shallow is in a gulf
-Taranto is a very good harbour thanks to both the small sea and the big sea, the only other somewhat decent harbours on the Ionian sea are Gallipoli and Crotone which are quite deep but small
-Messina and Reggio Calabria are good harbours overall(specially Messina) but the strait is subject to strong winds, Syracuse and Trapani are also good, the only other noteworthy harbours on Sicily are Palermo, Mazara del Vallo and Pantelleria(if Lampedusa is considered part of it)
-Sardinia seems to be ok, but you should also add Alghero which is better than Sassari because of its nearby bay, Tortoli a decent harbour due to its small lagoon used as a port since Carthaginian times and finally Sant'Antioco(which is in Tratalias) should be just a bit worse than Cagliari
-In Corsica Sartene, Bastia and Vico have some pretty good harbour but the best one should be in Ajaccio due to its size followed by Bonifacio
-Vallo, Sala Consilina, Lagonegro and Scalea should all have some small amounts of suitability thanks to their very small harbours and position,
Naples is a very good harbour specially if we consider that Pozzuoli and Castellammare di Stabia are in the same location, Gaeta should also have a harbour which is slightly worse than Salerno
-Latium is quite bad in terms of natural harbours, the best one should be whichever location owns Ponza(most likely Velletri, but even then the island is quite small and far from the mainlamd
-Piombino is a good harbour by far the best in Tuscany thanks its bay and to the fact that the location contains Elba island, Sovana is in second place due to the lagoon of Orbetello not really being navigable but it still has two small bays, Pisa although was definitely better in 1337 than it is today does not have any good feature that make it a natural harbour, to help with that Pisa built a series of berths along the rivers and the coast nearby, one of this was Porto Pisano(literally Pisan Port) a settlement built near livorno on a lagoon that by 1337 was declining but still there, therefore Livorno should have a very low suitability which should disappear by 1500 AD
-And finally the region of Liguria has some good suitability all around because of its topography and deep waters, the best port should be Sarzana with La Spezia being one of the best harbours on the peninsula, followed by Genoa another good harbour, Nice should be around the same level as Genoa, then Lavagna and Savona should be pretty decent with their small bays and finally Albenga, Ventimiglia and Finale should have a bit of suitability

I agree with pretty much everything
I'd say that Sovana and Velletri don't really deserve to get a better harbour
Ancona should definitely be green, maybe not the best but still a good harbour

 

[M Sohl]

They get stuck. You can read about it in the winter tinto talk.

Better than an army that's on the ice when the sea tile thaws, because then your army just gets wiped.

what happen if you march an army onto a enemy fleet frozen in the sea? Battle? Capture? Error?

 

[weatheredflag]

Russian and Ruthenian really shoudnt be seperate languages or whatever that symbolises this early, perhaps lithuania being able to schism the russian group makes sense but that comes later.

 

[Shaheen_Jc]

A lot of inaccuracies. There is almost no distinction between Khorasanis and Tajiks. Tajiks are just Persian speakers from Afghanistan, Tajikistan and parts of modern day Uzbekistan (Samarqand and Bukhara and other regions within the country) and this region was called Khorasan.
The Khwarizmian culture is highly inaccurate, it should only be present in Khwarizm region (Near the Aral sea) to a very small extent as most of them were wiped out by the mongol invaders in the 1210s and were replaced by Turks.

Transoxiania's major centers like Samarkand and Bukhara and most of its rural areas as well should instead be majority Persian speaking people (Tajik, even tho I suggest you change it to Khorasani), and there isn't a single credible historian in the world that disagrees with this.

Also do note that there was a small Jewish presence in Bukhara (Bukharan Jews) who spoke Persian.


Even to this day, Samarkand and Bukhara are majority Tajik and I am saying this as someone who has relatives in Samarkand and Bukhara. (I am from Afghanistan)
Here's a quote from a historian on the importance of the Persian (the language of Tajiks who are the only Persian speakers in Transoxiania) in Transoxiania (under chagatai khanate)

''Black, Edwin (1991). The Modernization of Inner Asia. M.E. Sharpe. pp. 32–33. The administrative and bureaucratic language of towns and khanates was Persian. Whereas Persian was the dominant literary language of the area, Chagatai shared its distinction by being the only Turkic literary language in Central Asia from the fourteenth to the early twentieth century.''

If Persian was the dominant language of the area, it means that the Persian speakers (Tajiks) were the dominant people of the area.
Even to this day, Tajiks are majority in Samarkand and Bukhara.

''Even so, one has merely to spend a few moments on the streets of Samarkandor Bukhara – the country’s second and third largest cities – to realize that mostpassers-by are speaking amongst themselves in Tojikī, not Uzbek.''
Reference : A History of the Tajiks: Iranians of the East, page 11, Richard Foltz


I would also point it the fact that the Afghan culture (which should be replaced by Pakhtun/Pashtun culture) wasn't as dominant in 1337 as shown on the map. Places like Farah province and Zaranj wouldn't and has never been majority Pashtun (Could argue with Farah city as it is half Tajik, half Pashtun today). If you look at the demographics of the Farah province, 70% of its population speak Persian/Dari and only 30% Pashtu. So this proves only 30% of Farah province is Pashtun. (Pashtun immigration to the north of modern day Afghanistan started in the 19th century)

File:Map of Languages (in Districts) in Afghanistan.jpg - Wikipedia​

en.m.wikipedia.org
Source is from the 1985 central statistics office of Afghanistan
Here's a map of the languages of Afghanistan in each district. Dari or Persian Dari is the mother tongue of the Tajiks and Hazaras. So Hazaras would be majority in Bamyian and surrounding areas.

Do note that the migration of Turkic peoples from northern and eastern Central Asia to Transoxania and Afghanistan was a gradual event that took several centuries. Therefore, there were no major Turkic cities in modern Afghanistan in 1337.

Here is a map that better shows the region where the Hazaras live (they also live in the big cities like Kabul, Herat and Mazar-e-Sharif, but they are in the minority):

You have shown Ghor province as being majority Hazara, again that is factually incorrect. Ghor province (the origin place of the Ghurids who were Tajiks/Khorasanis and Kartids were related to Ghurids) was and still is majority Tajik with around 40% of it being Hazaras in the East.

And you've depicted Khorasanis who speak Turkmen? I'm sorry, but that's absolutely not true, and it's a pity that a strategy game company as respectable as yours makes no effort to accurately describe facts about other continents. Khorasanis speak Persian, Turkmenis are not Khorasanis. Khorasan was the region located in modern day Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Iran, Turkmenistan (Merv) and Uzbekistan (Samarqand, Bukhara, Ferghana). And in this region, Persian speakers (Tajiks) were in the majority even in 1337.


Please do take this into consideration and correct the inaccuracies.
Thank you for taking the time to read this the comment.

 

[Romancommander95]

ahhhh what happened to the society of pops in Australia. Is Paradox supporting the old 'terra nullius' statement (land belonging to no one). I'd just rather a more accurate portrayal of the map or at least have an adequate size of pops per continent while still having excellent game performance. This map just looks a bit blank to me and lacks its variety that got me so hyped into Project Caesar in the first place, unless we are going back Europa Universalis IV number of factions. Or is Paradox is supporting New Zealand in the trans-Tasman rivalry with Australia... but anyway

 

[Lord_Telchar]

I would also still feel like splitting "German" into 2 groups would be better, like Niederdeutsch and Hochdeutsch (Low Germanic and High Germanic in English maybe) or whatever term would be most neutral for those languages, using the High German Consonant shift as the line for example. The term I just mentioned for Low Germanic would fit really well in my opinion as the biggest groups of the Low Germanic would be Dutch and Low Saxon (and maybe Frisian, as Low Saxon is closer related to Frisian and English than it is to Dutch or the High German languages), both known for the low laying land. Splitting it into 2 would also show the high diversity of mainland Germanic languages a bit better imo, and make it not seem like 1 giant language blob.

Splitting it into two is somewhat ahistorical in that during the time the west-germanic dialect continuum at least on the continent was perceived as part of one language - that being "dutch" or whatever local variation of that word you'd prefer. I personally don't like calling it "german" either, as it evokes the wrong association with the modern standardised language, but it's fine as a compromise.
I'd prefer either calling it "dutch", or using some historical spelling variation that's broad enough to get the point across, like "duytsch", or maybe the latinised "teutonic"

 

[ArVass]

Building-based Countries:
View attachment 1238989

I hope there will be more of these as the game progresses!

Court Languages:
View attachment 1238984

as per the Balkans feedback talk, Croatia should have Latin as its court language aswell

Terrain:
View attachment 1238985
View attachment 1238987
View attachment 1238988
Johan will talk this Wednesday about the effects of each terrain type.

So I can see that the terrain changes to the Carpathians (mainly in the distribution of hills and mountains) suggested in the feedback thread haven't been implemented yet, I hope they eventually will.

The vegetation of Eastern Siberia should be sparse in the impassable mountains and tundra, but woods and forests in the valleys in Kamchatka.

Languages:
View attachment 1239000

Religions:
View attachment 1239003
The Animism split was completed, and the grouping into bigger families is almost finished (there's some pending work on Western and Eastern Africa, but that's it).

Already commented on Polynesian, but I'd also like to point out again that giving Haida the "Dené Totemism" religion is sort of wrong, as they are not Dené; I'd probably either give the religion a different name, or merge the two Totemisms of the Northwestern Coast of North America into one. Giving Tlingit the Dené language while separating the Southern Athabaskan languages also doesn't make sense, as Tlingit is the most distant branch of the family.

And that's it for today! Although there's pending work yet to be done in the new year, we think that the progress since we started the Tinto Maps series last spring is noticeable, something that we wouldn't have achieved without your feedback. We will keep gathering, processing, and implementing it in the Tinto Maps Feedback posts, continuing with the Maghreb review, which will be shown tomorrow.

And this Friday 10th we will start a new series, Tinto Flavour, in which I will show and talk about the content that we have been creating for Project Caesar. We hope that you will enjoy this new series and that you can keep helping us make this a fun and engaging game. Cheers!

PS: Today is a bank holiday in Spain, so I will reply to the comments tomorrow.

Very nice! Looking forward to the TFs.

Also, once all the feedback for each individual map segment is processed, are you planning to post a "Tinto Maps Special Edition: The World Over Heaven" great review of the final map?

 

[ArVass]

Also, all text towards the sides of the map shades away and disappears. Is that a bug or intentional?

 

[Dna Poul]

why isn't their any SoPs in Australia? why isn't their any Zoroastrianism in and around Persia. and why is north Iran, Iraq, Central Asia, the step lands and china all under the same common language

 

[nebulous0]

how is Hull not a good harbour in britain

 

[weatheredflag]

how is Hull not a good harbour in britain

shithole

 

[Polesie Admiral]

The biggest distinctions are that inland Seas can freeze over and they also give a combat bonus to galleys. Imo that doesn't really represent the North Sea.

idk if it was confirmed but the game will somehow represent the storms and shipwrecking that occured around the world?

 

[trotskyyyy]

Someone else has already said it, but I think it would be ashame not to include Australia in the SoPs. A lot of research over the last few decades has shown that these societies were quite complex, with some approaching settled agriculture even in the parts of this map in Australia that are considered uninhabitable. Dark Emu, which has been read very widely in Australia, goes through this evidence and points towards the academic works and research done on this topic. Bill Gammage as well has written on this topic.

Does the team intend on adding SoPs to Australia in the future?

 

[kittybird]

Why is Arborea a republic? I can sorta understand the various Italian Signorias being categorized as such but the Judges of Sardinia were basically monarchs

Yeah, it should be considered an elective monarchy. The judges even used the term rex for themselves, at times.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

Locations:

hmmm weird there are sea lanes in the arctic sea, so can you at least add a continous sea lanes from scandinavia to kamchatka(and add svalbard for good measure)? also where maghreb feedback?

 

[emilgunder]

Nidaros being a great port makes sense, but the Trondheimsfjord should perhaps not be black for the remaining. In the game, Skaun.. which should be Orkanger is similar to Nidaros, as is Stjørdal and Steinkjer although not as great. The Germans during ww2 occupation planned a new colonial capital in Nidaros with a fleet base. So if it is for balance having Nidaros as very good, perhaps one of the best in the world makes sense. I have some older feedback in regards to Norway, the counties in Trøndelag could be adjusted.. Or to the very least renamed. Støren > Gaula as an example. Or even Skaun to Gaula. Currently the Orkanger and Skaun makes no sense together as the historical and current day Orkanger is in the game within Skaun. Please see my older 2 comments here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...024-scandinavia.1695964/page-41#post-29858472 also see the follow up post below the linked

 

[Polesie Admiral]

And this Friday 10th we will start a new series, Tinto Flavour

im guessing you would be talking about countries individually, if so can we get control map on every country in their flavor post?

 

[Domina Arberiae]

Looking good! Just wish you'd also check look into contemporary sources regarding Epirus, which absolutely had much more Albanians that shown here, which is why Albanians in the complete south of Epirus were capable to rebel against the Despotate of Epirus and form the Despotate of Arta, or why the Albanian Zenebishi family were able to initiate a revolt in Gjirokastër (Argyrokastron) and form the Principality of Gjirokastër.
A good source for the Epirus of this time is the Chronicle of Ioannina, written in Greek and tells us about the history of the region during the rule of Thomas Preljubovic in Epirus. It is however important to note that the date the chronicle was written is unknown, with a likely date being up to the 16th century.

 

[Alzoura]

Why is scandinavian one language? from what i understand a reasonable split in east norse happened around the 13th century, way before this game takes place, making danish, swedish and norwegian be three (while mutually intelligible to some degree) different languages. Especially considering these three are different countries at the start, why not give them their own language?