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Tinto Talks #10 - 1st of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the final of four on the economy system for our secret game with the code name “Project Caesar”.

Today we will talk about all the things related to trade, including markets, merchants and trades. This talk is heavy on tooltip screenshots, and a lot of concepts to digest, so I recommend checking it through multiple times.

Markets
Let's start with the markets themselves. These are dynamic and will change through the playthrough, as countries can create new markets and disband their old if they so desire.

Each market has a center in a location, and the owner of that location is in control over that market.

Every location and coastal seazone will belong to the most fitting market, which depends on the market attraction of the market, the distance between the location and the market center, diplomatic factors, and more.

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The Riga market has control over much of the Baltic region in the start..

A market has merchants, who have a power depending on buildings and maritime presence in the market, and a merchant capacity which depends on the infrastructure for trade that country has in that market. The Merchant Power impacts in which order exports from a market are executed, as there is not an endless supply of goods in a market. The Merchant Capacity impacts how much goods the merchants can ship.

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This is the source of the Hanseatic League’s merchant capacity in Riga.



As you can see in the market screenshot, every good has a local price, and a supply vs demand value as well, let's take a look at the beer price in the next tooltip.

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Cheap beer, must be paradise…

Prices change every month towards the Target Price, which depends on the supply and demand of the goods in the market, and the current price stability. Price stability can change through the ages as well.

Supply & Demand
The supply of each good in a market depends on several factors.
  • The output from RGO’s
  • The output from buildings
  • Base Production
  • Burgher Trades

So what is ‘Base Production’? Some goods like clay, lumber, sand and stone are produced in every market, without the need for specific RGO’s, even if an RGO with that raw material can produce much more, and there are buildings that can be built to provide these as well.

Also, your burghers will trade on their own, if they have the capacity for it. They will attempt to address needs within the market, and can trade in a slightly shorter range, thus enriching their estate. There are laws and privileges that impact them, like the “Trade Monopolies” estate privilege that the Hanseatic League has granted in the earlier screenshot, which reduces their own merchant capacity by 25% to increase the capacity of the burghers by 100%

So what about demand? This is primarily from the maintenance, input, and construction of buildings, recruiting and maintaining armies and navies, and the demands of the population, but there are more sources as well.

Of course, trades themselves impact supply and demand as well.

Trade
You can use your merchant capacity in a market to either export a good from that market, or import a good from another market. Of course that market needs to be within your trade range, which is not world-spanning in 1337.

A trade is a variable amount of goods shipped from one market to another market, purchasing it for the local price in the exporting market. The longer the distance between the markets, the more capacity each good will require to ship, and higher the maintenance costs will be.

Trades have an impact on the last land location they are in before leaving the market, and the first one they enter in the importing market, giving boosts in development to them over time. A trade always has to trace a path on the map.

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Our merchant power makes us get the amount of goods we want in Riga.

There are also the Sound Tolls, if you pass through Öresund or the Bosphorus to consider.

Diplomacy and Trade
There are many diplomatic factors that impact the trade and market mechanics of Project Caesar.

First of all, you can “Deny Market Access” to a nation owning a market, which will reduce the attraction of their markets on your locations, but also make anyone with merchants in those markets upset with you.

You can also request and/or offer market access preference making it likelier for a country’s locations to belong in a certain market.

If you dislike paying Sound Tolls, you can always try to ask for exemption for it through diplomacy with the country controlling the strait.

Some countries have isolated themselves completely, so you need to negotiate a specific exception to allow you to export or import from their markets.

There is also the possibility to embargo a country, which would block the merchants from that country to trade in your markets, and also to not be allowed to move through your country. Of course, this a legit casus belli, so use with care.

Other aspects to Trade
Each market can have specific goods banned for export or import, with one common example being that muslim markets will ban import and export of wine, beer and liquor.

We mentioned in an earlier Tinto Talks that Markets will have stockpiles, so that surplus can be stored for a rainy day. There are buildings that will increase the amount that can be stored.

There is also food in the markets, with prices adapting to the supply and demand of food as well.

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Västra Götaland är Sveriges Kornbod!

There are also automation options where you can assign trading completely to the AI. You can also lock some trades so that the AI will not interfere with them.

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be talking about mercenaries, levies and regulars!
 
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I believe in 1337 Charles is actually at war with 2 of those nobles, which are even backed by Austria. It is only the peacetreaty with Austria in which it is agreed upon neither nation will back future internal wars with rebel nobles that results in the actual consolidation of power to happen in Hungary.
Yeah, one could say that was a last ditch effort of the Kőszegis to reclaim their lost lands, castles and influence. They even allied their old rivals, the Babonić family. That was more of a sideshow of a wider conflict though, with Bohemia, Hungary and Poland on one side and Emperor Louis and the Austrians on the other.

You can read more about the conflict here (use google translate).
 
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In regards to civil wars, will this function like in Imperator where you can't fully annex rebel states under certain conditions?

For example if I declare war on England and then the war of the roses happens, will I only be able to fully annex the original country in this scenario?
 
It would be funny if I added building that makes 1000 000 000 units of each good - how fast and far it would break markets?
 
It would be funny if I added building that makes 1000 000 000 units of each good - how fast and far it would break markets?
Well, every price would just be at the minimum, so, at least at the time of when the screenshots were taken, that would be a 1/5 of the base price. I think markets would still work like that, but trades wouldn't be profitable and your new buildings would be extremely wealthy while normal buildings wouldn't be profitable.
 
Trades have an impact on the last land location they are in before leaving the market, and the first one they enter in the importing market, giving boosts in development to them over time.
How about the location holding the market itself? Historically markets were a massive boom to whatever city hosted them, the larger the better! Seems a bit weird to just skip that effect. Especially considering you do give that bonus to whatever the most exterior port happens to be.

Honestly, I am beginning to feel that "Trades have an impact on every land location they pass through" would be the better option here.
 
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Well, every price would just be at the minimum, so, at least at the time of when the screenshots were taken, that would be a 1/5 of the base price. I think markets would still work like that, but trades wouldn't be profitable and your new buildings would be extremely wealthy while normal buildings wouldn't be profitable.
In Vicky 3 pops would benefit from it as their wealth would shot up by ~14 levels, if they don't work in buildings making those goods :D
Also you would have very opulent pops in trade center as long as prices don't equalize.

Basically Vicky 3 pops are demand sponges - highly profitable buildings have highly wealthy owners, which means high good demand from them.
Higher wages also means more consumption from population.
 
a) Yes, you don't need to be adjacnen to trade
b) yes, you can have multiple markets in your country

7) about the a response, does that mean that you can bypass some markets ompletely? Like to trade between Krakow to Köln without involving Praha or any other node in between the two? Or it just means that you can go around Praha via Lubeck?

8) related to that, I assume it's possible for maritime trade to use sea that is not claimed by any market, otherwise transoceanic trade it's not gonna work, but is possible to cut off a market by passing through unclaimed sea? For example going from the Portuguese/Castilian market directly to the London market bypassing the Bordeaux market

currently straits only..

9) this doesn't seem right, is there any particular reason why? Controlling and taxing land trade seems much easier than maritime commerce


10) how much time takes a location to swap market? Is instantaneous? Yearly? Once a comet gets sighted?


11) any reason? Is Gibraltar not a strait and why?

12) since we are talking the entrance to the Mediterranean, might as well ask it: is the Suez canal or any other big canal connecting two big bodies of water buildable? And if yes how it's gonna work trade wise?
 
In reality the Dutch couldn't because the Danes has access to a very large Geman market over land and they didn't have the army manpower to attack the Danes over land. So without taking part in the actual historical war the armed the Swedish with the best German manufactured weapons at a profitable but discounted price in exchange for exemption rights on the toll. After the Swedish win my ancestors madethe same deal with the Danes because they already knew the Swedish wouldn't be able to hold on to this control in thd long run against the Danes. This historically consolidated cheap Dutch access to the Baltic trade on lumber and grain that became the foundation of the Dutch trade empire. I think it would be nice if you could make diplomatic deals as part of a war that could also be part of a future peace deal. That way you wouldn't have to participate in a war directly or only indirectly by renting out mercenaries.


Wow really cool stuff I didnt know about it. Do you have more info on it in English?

i cant wait to play the Netherlands and do precisely that. I really hope the diplomatic gameplay allow that and things like doublecrossing like you mentioned.

Cant wait to replicate the dutch baltic grain trade
 
Another, far less important suggestion of mine is setting up another market area centred around Hermannstadt/Szeben (today Sibiu, Romania). The market area could encompass Transylvania and adjacencies of the Lower Danube. Historically, trade in this area was quite heavily influenced by the Transylvanian Saxon towns, a separate "Hermannstadt Market" could represent that well, imo.
While it would be historical, it would probably suffer from being too small (though it could/should also draw from Wallachia), and get disbanded quickly. At the and of the day it's still a game, and stuff will have to be sacrificed for the game's systems to work properly.
 
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Seriously hoping for more dynamic trade routes. Considering the vast amount of the world's silver flowed INTO China during this era, it was somewhat dumb that you could not dominate the world economy as Ming.
 
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Will there be 'Navigation Acts' that forces one market to trade only with specific markets? E.g. a Dublin market can only buy and sell goods to a London market.

You mean when one country has tow markets under its control?

I am sure there will be a preference with the "overlord market" but not if certain goods can't be traded there at a profit. I would hope then that they will be allowed to trade them elsewhere?
 
I am not so hyped so see a lot of vic3 things coming into the game. I am not a big fan of the production buildings and trade route system in a dynamic economy at this scale. I have not a lot of fun in tweaking those routes constantly for a thousand times in a campaign. It feels like playing Anno in a side menu to me. Maybe if there were lesser ressources. But as we could see on previous talks, there will be A LOT. And there will all be dynamic..

I am a little bit sceptical and worried that it could turn out to be as obnoxious as it is in vic3 for me.
 
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Ohhh yeaaahh can't wait to ban coffee, alcohol, opium, tobacco, and cannabis/hemp. I might even ban nutmeg, sugar, and cloves just for the sh*ts and giggles lol
 
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I have a very morbid question. How will this game implement slave trade? Are they going to be "trade goods" like in EU4? However, this game also has a pop system and there are going to be enslaved pops. Can I also just ban slave "goods" on my market? Will there be a tinto talk thread about this very dark side of history? I think it's important to depict this dark part of humanity's history as accurate as possible.