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Tinto Talks #10 - 1st of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the final of four on the economy system for our secret game with the code name “Project Caesar”.

Today we will talk about all the things related to trade, including markets, merchants and trades. This talk is heavy on tooltip screenshots, and a lot of concepts to digest, so I recommend checking it through multiple times.

Markets
Let's start with the markets themselves. These are dynamic and will change through the playthrough, as countries can create new markets and disband their old if they so desire.

Each market has a center in a location, and the owner of that location is in control over that market.

Every location and coastal seazone will belong to the most fitting market, which depends on the market attraction of the market, the distance between the location and the market center, diplomatic factors, and more.

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The Riga market has control over much of the Baltic region in the start..

A market has merchants, who have a power depending on buildings and maritime presence in the market, and a merchant capacity which depends on the infrastructure for trade that country has in that market. The Merchant Power impacts in which order exports from a market are executed, as there is not an endless supply of goods in a market. The Merchant Capacity impacts how much goods the merchants can ship.

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This is the source of the Hanseatic League’s merchant capacity in Riga.



As you can see in the market screenshot, every good has a local price, and a supply vs demand value as well, let's take a look at the beer price in the next tooltip.

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Cheap beer, must be paradise…

Prices change every month towards the Target Price, which depends on the supply and demand of the goods in the market, and the current price stability. Price stability can change through the ages as well.

Supply & Demand
The supply of each good in a market depends on several factors.
  • The output from RGO’s
  • The output from buildings
  • Base Production
  • Burgher Trades

So what is ‘Base Production’? Some goods like clay, lumber, sand and stone are produced in every market, without the need for specific RGO’s, even if an RGO with that raw material can produce much more, and there are buildings that can be built to provide these as well.

Also, your burghers will trade on their own, if they have the capacity for it. They will attempt to address needs within the market, and can trade in a slightly shorter range, thus enriching their estate. There are laws and privileges that impact them, like the “Trade Monopolies” estate privilege that the Hanseatic League has granted in the earlier screenshot, which reduces their own merchant capacity by 25% to increase the capacity of the burghers by 100%

So what about demand? This is primarily from the maintenance, input, and construction of buildings, recruiting and maintaining armies and navies, and the demands of the population, but there are more sources as well.

Of course, trades themselves impact supply and demand as well.

Trade
You can use your merchant capacity in a market to either export a good from that market, or import a good from another market. Of course that market needs to be within your trade range, which is not world-spanning in 1337.

A trade is a variable amount of goods shipped from one market to another market, purchasing it for the local price in the exporting market. The longer the distance between the markets, the more capacity each good will require to ship, and higher the maintenance costs will be.

Trades have an impact on the last land location they are in before leaving the market, and the first one they enter in the importing market, giving boosts in development to them over time. A trade always has to trace a path on the map.

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Our merchant power makes us get the amount of goods we want in Riga.

There are also the Sound Tolls, if you pass through Öresund or the Bosphorus to consider.

Diplomacy and Trade
There are many diplomatic factors that impact the trade and market mechanics of Project Caesar.

First of all, you can “Deny Market Access” to a nation owning a market, which will reduce the attraction of their markets on your locations, but also make anyone with merchants in those markets upset with you.

You can also request and/or offer market access preference making it likelier for a country’s locations to belong in a certain market.

If you dislike paying Sound Tolls, you can always try to ask for exemption for it through diplomacy with the country controlling the strait.

Some countries have isolated themselves completely, so you need to negotiate a specific exception to allow you to export or import from their markets.

There is also the possibility to embargo a country, which would block the merchants from that country to trade in your markets, and also to not be allowed to move through your country. Of course, this a legit casus belli, so use with care.

Other aspects to Trade
Each market can have specific goods banned for export or import, with one common example being that muslim markets will ban import and export of wine, beer and liquor.

We mentioned in an earlier Tinto Talks that Markets will have stockpiles, so that surplus can be stored for a rainy day. There are buildings that will increase the amount that can be stored.

There is also food in the markets, with prices adapting to the supply and demand of food as well.

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Västra Götaland är Sveriges Kornbod!

There are also automation options where you can assign trading completely to the AI. You can also lock some trades so that the AI will not interfere with them.

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be talking about mercenaries, levies and regulars!
 
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With regards to hard min/hard max, clearly some people have negative experiences with Victoria 3, and are projecting it here.

For what its worth, the system in Project Caesar seems to be a lot better. As we can see from the image Johan provided, it seems clear that the price for beer in Riga 1337 can vary between 1/5th and 5x its base price. This is MUCH better than Victoria 3, where the price can merely vary between 1/4th and 1.75 of its base price. Not only does this not have symmetry, in my experience, MOST goods in Victoria 3 seem to hit these hard caps quite frequently, particularly the 1.75 hard cap. A 5x cap would be much less intrusive.

However, I still have two concerns

1. Regarding shortages. Unless I'm missing something, I've noticed that populations can somehow obtain some goods in V3 out of thin air. They just cost 75% more. So how will buildings and pops function with shortages of essential goods here? Will buildings become dysfunctional if they completely lack a certain good? Will populations starve? Are there going to be any goods appearing out of thin air?

2. Even if you properly deal with shortages, a wide price variation is very important. I read that the price variation will depend on the good and the age. I hope the price variation does not decrease significantly from 1/5th to 5x.
 
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Now onto the TT itself.

13) in the first screenshot there is a good called sturdy grains. What are non sturdy grains? Are those even a thing? I'm sorry but I'm quite ignorant on agrarian matters

14) seems like the Riga market is low on sand. 1337 Baltic trade experts I summon ye! Why is that? Doesn't the Baltic sea have big ass beaches with huge sand dunes?

15) the language of the Riga market is called Baltic. Probably it's Baltic German but might as well ask if it's some other kind of Baltic. Also on what is based the market language? The language of the market capital? The most spoken language within the market? Other? And how do I change it?

16) what does the little hand holding a little heart icon show on the side of the wine, fine cloth and gold trade goods prices in the first screenshot mean? Complete lack of that good in the market? Stagnant prices?

17) is the Hanseatic Kontor shown in the second screenshot a special building?

18) can you talk about what changes price stability through the game?

19) can you make some examples of the countries that have completely isolated themselves from foreign trade that you mention? I don't recall any county in the world having that situation in 1337. Also are countries able to close themselves to the outside world through the game? How do you do that? It's like an embargo everyone button? It's a viable strategy for a player or the AI, or just roleplay?

20) if a market chooses to ban trade of a certain good, can ban only import and only export or has to ban them both at the same time? If I have a market populated by Muslims and I unban alcohol it's gonna generate some form of unrest or some kind of economic/not economic problem or it's just not gonna be sold?

21) in the last screenshot which names correspond to locations and which names correspond to provinces? I ask it because if the city of Königsberg alone in 1337 consumes more food that an entire region that means that cities are gonna consume lots and lots of food.

22) since it seems is gonna be pretty convenient to establish a national market, is there any hindrance to establish a market in your capital besides the 1000 gold/ducats cost? I ask because otherwise there's the risk of market bloating through the game.

23) can you tell how does trade works in uncolonized areas? And when I found a new colony, let's say I'm the Netherlands and I found a city called Nieuv Amsterdaam on an island located on the north American east coast, does that colony start with a new market? If not colonizing it's gonna be pretty expensive and not very worthwhile in the short term, which is historical, but also does mean that the natives who presumably hold the markets in the Americas are gonna profit from European colonization, which is kinda historical but also kinda weird from a gameplay point of view.

24) can you please tell us if 25 questions at about 01:30 pm CET are too much or too late to get responses? I've the suspicion it's both too much and too late, but you never know...

25) I want to get to 25 questions because.... reasons. I like round numbers, and also like multiples of 5, so I will invent a 25th question that has nothing to do with any of this. As with any other question feel free to respond or not. How are you Johan? Is everything fine? Are you being held hostage at the Tinto HQ to make the absolute banger of a game that Project Caesar seems to be? Blink once if yes, blink twice if not.
 
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Very hyped for the new trade system!!


Two questions regarding modding:

- Will it be possible to create barter trades (i.e. you offer X amount of good A in exchange for Y amount of good B), without money being exchanged?

- Will be possible to switch the "unit" a price is set as (assuming there is currently a sort of "universal currency" that is set to "gold" or "ducat" or "florin" or the like)?

[E.g.: country A only accepts to sell good X if payed in "silver" by country B, instead of "gold"]


Thanks in advance :)
 
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This looks very promising! Well done.

My biggest fear was the enormous national markets of Victoria 3. If shipping costs are only tracked between markets, then that means goods effectively teleport around within the national market. A single USA market allows a player to mine for iron and coal on one coast, then turn the product into steel on the other, then build cars back on the first coast. In real life, that would never happen. Manufacturing is going to be balanced between population centers and resource centers.

It looks like that fear was not substantiated, although I am still worried that markets may get larger later in the game period.

Anyway, if the developers are looking for feedback, please don't have large national markets at any point. There was no point in the period where transportation costs were not an issue in a country the size of France. Large scale paved roads weren't a thing until the 18th century. As such, France should have multiple markets even when united (a northern and southern market, at minimum). The same goes for Russia on steroids. I understand that colonial markets will definitely be separate (as shown with Genoa and Kaffa), but large territorial powers should have multiple markets too.

Thanks!

Edit: If this is a taste/performance thing, make it moddable. I'd prefer more, smaller markets so that logistics are more of an issue. My ideal in a united France would probably be three French markets (Paris, Bordeaux or Nantes, and Marseille or Lyon seem like reasonable choices).
 
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One question I have— since technology improves tags’ ability to project trade power, does the number of markets diminish as the game goes on? It’d be interesting to see some process of centralization/consolidation in markets parallel to that of states.
 
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Trades only happen AFTER all internal demands in the market are satisfied.
It could be really fun if this was not entirely hardcoded. We could have CBs where we force an enemy into a treaty where they sell us a % of their produce at low price and force artificial famines or other economic problems on them, weakening enemies through diplomacy and trade.
 
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Always shortest route
Shortest route as counted by cost to travel or just physical distance? I hope it's the former because we could have really interesting historically plausible gameplay.

As an example:
Point A and B are quite close physically but are separated by mountains which are difficult to cross quickly and cheaply. If we build a road network going around the mountains by a Point C we could transform point C into a logistic hub. Later on, in the 1800s, we could build a tunnel directly between A and B and point C would lose its importance.

There's plenty of cases in history where the creation of newer routes lead to certain cities losing their importance.
 
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I think the reason why that logic is in place is that it makes the logic for automatic trading a lot more simple. Otherwise the calculation (whether or not you want to leave demand unsatisfied in order to pursue profit) becomes a lot more complicated, and you can also do a lot of really obnoxious things like, say... if you're in a market with someone else, you can forcibly trade away the resources that they have demand for that you don't in order to punish them for sharing a market with you.

Like, you would able to pursue strategies like "well I happen to share a market with a significant chunk of France, and they happen to be in a war right now with Spain so... I'm just gonna export every single gun in our market so that they lose the war" and there'd be basically no counterplay other than "import more guns" as France. It leads to a lot of dumb, un-fun versions of economic warfare that people would get sick of real quick.
 
I think the reason why that logic is in place is that it makes the logic for automatic trading a lot more simple. Otherwise the calculation (whether or not you want to leave demand unsatisfied in order to pursue profit) becomes a lot more complicated, and you can also do a lot of really obnoxious things like, say... if you're in a market with someone else, you can forcibly trade away the resources that they have demand for that you don't in order to punish them for sharing a market with you.

Like, you would able to pursue strategies like "well I happen to share a market with a significant chunk of France, and they happen to be in a war right now with Spain so... I'm just gonna export every single gun in our market so that they lose the war" and there'd be basically no counterplay other than "import more guns" as France. It leads to a lot of dumb, un-fun versions of economic warfare that people would get sick of real quick.
This could be easily handled by having limitations on these depending on how much control we have on the market and locations. If both France and England own a big share of that common market, then England shouldn't be able to force sell. Could be gated for markets that you completely control among other requirements, say England owns the entirety of the Irish market and wants to weaken the region and enrich other parts of their empire they can do it.

But in your example, if France is having a big war, we could force other countries into treaties to artificially increase the price of guns. France in this case definitely has counterplay.
These tactics are very common all across history including Napoleonic times which are covered in-game.
 
Well sure, but that's at least external to their market. Having the ability to force-sell in a market just makes it, in an MP sense, a miserable experience to share a market with anyone else. You'd pretty much universally never want to, and if the AI's willing to employ this strategy as well, you'd almost certainly always want to have a market completely under your control.

Like, I bring up the war example, but it's not just that. Literally anything that you want to do, any industry, anyone else in the market can just export away your imports before you can use them. It'd be awful.

Even if you do limit it to only powers with a sufficient concentration of market power, you're still handing people a loaded gun and saying "please avoid shooting yourself in the face". I'm not saying that there's no uses for such a thing, but they're almost all extremely self-detrimental.
 
No County Palatine of Durham in northern England? Yeah, England was much more centralized than most states, but it did have its one exception with Durham.
 
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Well sure, but that's at least external to their market. Having the ability to force-sell in a market just makes it, in an MP sense, a miserable experience to share a market with anyone else. You'd pretty much universally never want to, and if the AI's willing to employ this strategy as well, you'd almost certainly always want to have a market completely under your control.

Like, I bring up the war example, but it's not just that. Literally anything that you want to do, any industry, anyone else in the market can just export away your imports before you can use them. It'd be awful.

Even if you do limit it to only powers with a sufficient concentration of market power, you're still handing people a loaded gun and saying "please avoid shooting yourself in the face". I'm not saying that there's no uses for such a thing, but they're almost all extremely self-detrimental.
If implemented in a good way, there wouldn't be any case for what you are describing. Price fixation is and was extremely common and should be a feature if you want to simulate economies. The examples I listed were the most extreme, but it should have applications in normal gameplay as well.
I was just asking for the mechanic where markets can only sell externally if all of their internal demand was satisfied to not be hard coded and be open to modders.


Say:
I produce 10 luxury cloth in Kyiv. The pops in Kyiv want 10 Luxury cloth and they can pay 10 gold per piece. The pops in Riga want 10 Luxury cloth and they can pay 11 gold per piece. The traders in Kyiv should sell 6 cloth to Riga until the demand drops and they will pay 9 gold per piece. With the remaining 6 cloth the traders should then sell to Kyiv because the price there is higher. In a demand supply game, we should not have arbitrary limits such as sell everything locally even if at a loss even though we could sell to the adjacent trade node for a better price.
 
currently it costs 1000 gold, but nothing is set in stone yet.. all values are placeholders as we test.

it can be done in any town or city you own.

Will currency numerical values be similar to those of CK3/EU4 as in 1,000 is a lot throughout the first third of the game or is 1,000 here actually worth a lot more than 1,000 in CK3/EU4?
 
currently it costs 1000 gold, but nothing is set in stone yet.. all values are placeholders as we test.

it can be done in any town or city you own.
Maybe you can scale the cost to create a market based on that location's market access. So it would be very expensive to create a new market in a location that already has great access to a nearby market, but pretty cheap to create a new market in locations that are far away from market centers.