• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Talks #10 - 1st of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the final of four on the economy system for our secret game with the code name “Project Caesar”.

Today we will talk about all the things related to trade, including markets, merchants and trades. This talk is heavy on tooltip screenshots, and a lot of concepts to digest, so I recommend checking it through multiple times.

Markets
Let's start with the markets themselves. These are dynamic and will change through the playthrough, as countries can create new markets and disband their old if they so desire.

Each market has a center in a location, and the owner of that location is in control over that market.

Every location and coastal seazone will belong to the most fitting market, which depends on the market attraction of the market, the distance between the location and the market center, diplomatic factors, and more.

IND8u3KEluhwiu85x22WKoYosHcca0_GsOSQ4X3fkAUkxE5HJCluAOPf7Ndp1AOWs3SVq7COQGwn1pqsALYsFUh-JlKW2BQotToqtBQxdVQ_8qTRUrqrkEuG-tpOFKXY3jY2HcqGPDmkFV9dvc6vECg

The Riga market has control over much of the Baltic region in the start..

A market has merchants, who have a power depending on buildings and maritime presence in the market, and a merchant capacity which depends on the infrastructure for trade that country has in that market. The Merchant Power impacts in which order exports from a market are executed, as there is not an endless supply of goods in a market. The Merchant Capacity impacts how much goods the merchants can ship.

DmG80vDbiHg8Lz7za7ZygAL03fx0xES5mMUIPqvzcxicW20awRNeO77099TOeRNkoYxwYrsaiRThpDn_XPNE_mq3uP_Zz8YA5JbLICIemjYwsGEPRf3de9P8CXNI1JGpztSAT1PAPYjSUzinUKaVEQQ

This is the source of the Hanseatic League’s merchant capacity in Riga.



As you can see in the market screenshot, every good has a local price, and a supply vs demand value as well, let's take a look at the beer price in the next tooltip.

J88wyLaCAImVXdvbW7e4YTks4qTitOU--vFt8_SKhlFVS3LRU8H1uSurnqo-L28kbzZXSFTBoz23S9TT49UkpqMVps6KBNUSfw1TCRW2Wh8UIurvvmkxz0ufWPA3ZRugdLJtv2cRUSbrmOkyJ2NdojE

Cheap beer, must be paradise…

Prices change every month towards the Target Price, which depends on the supply and demand of the goods in the market, and the current price stability. Price stability can change through the ages as well.

Supply & Demand
The supply of each good in a market depends on several factors.
  • The output from RGO’s
  • The output from buildings
  • Base Production
  • Burgher Trades

So what is ‘Base Production’? Some goods like clay, lumber, sand and stone are produced in every market, without the need for specific RGO’s, even if an RGO with that raw material can produce much more, and there are buildings that can be built to provide these as well.

Also, your burghers will trade on their own, if they have the capacity for it. They will attempt to address needs within the market, and can trade in a slightly shorter range, thus enriching their estate. There are laws and privileges that impact them, like the “Trade Monopolies” estate privilege that the Hanseatic League has granted in the earlier screenshot, which reduces their own merchant capacity by 25% to increase the capacity of the burghers by 100%

So what about demand? This is primarily from the maintenance, input, and construction of buildings, recruiting and maintaining armies and navies, and the demands of the population, but there are more sources as well.

Of course, trades themselves impact supply and demand as well.

Trade
You can use your merchant capacity in a market to either export a good from that market, or import a good from another market. Of course that market needs to be within your trade range, which is not world-spanning in 1337.

A trade is a variable amount of goods shipped from one market to another market, purchasing it for the local price in the exporting market. The longer the distance between the markets, the more capacity each good will require to ship, and higher the maintenance costs will be.

Trades have an impact on the last land location they are in before leaving the market, and the first one they enter in the importing market, giving boosts in development to them over time. A trade always has to trace a path on the map.

N_IzZLynmh-xb_S63dKE5-bOopZ1LQo18PP8xrozl4i5Dpt78lHd2Z0gmu1gKrXelHOvD0weruSAlJYpUfks5RKKNw-U3J-mxFMV1XX88ULIXpfadMP6VBcm3FU70pb9pbyNOCxC_ewWSFWkOQcm3As

Our merchant power makes us get the amount of goods we want in Riga.

There are also the Sound Tolls, if you pass through Öresund or the Bosphorus to consider.

Diplomacy and Trade
There are many diplomatic factors that impact the trade and market mechanics of Project Caesar.

First of all, you can “Deny Market Access” to a nation owning a market, which will reduce the attraction of their markets on your locations, but also make anyone with merchants in those markets upset with you.

You can also request and/or offer market access preference making it likelier for a country’s locations to belong in a certain market.

If you dislike paying Sound Tolls, you can always try to ask for exemption for it through diplomacy with the country controlling the strait.

Some countries have isolated themselves completely, so you need to negotiate a specific exception to allow you to export or import from their markets.

There is also the possibility to embargo a country, which would block the merchants from that country to trade in your markets, and also to not be allowed to move through your country. Of course, this a legit casus belli, so use with care.

Other aspects to Trade
Each market can have specific goods banned for export or import, with one common example being that muslim markets will ban import and export of wine, beer and liquor.

We mentioned in an earlier Tinto Talks that Markets will have stockpiles, so that surplus can be stored for a rainy day. There are buildings that will increase the amount that can be stored.

There is also food in the markets, with prices adapting to the supply and demand of food as well.

ZZti8FBtbpZfZ0U5VjmqbP2fguK-coTm8FO0nn0aMPPpb0wJThjX2_XmvKwD-rJ4ru22FZWqQgQ55P1QfzDdqjx5C_mknn5KpbaG_9TLc3RRBXLDsVz9Q6oUe3zZNSNmbb2OI6gk3JlumV6vPoukAWE

Västra Götaland är Sveriges Kornbod!

There are also automation options where you can assign trading completely to the AI. You can also lock some trades so that the AI will not interfere with them.

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be talking about mercenaries, levies and regulars!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • 266Love
  • 175Like
  • 14
  • 3
  • 2Haha
  • 2
Reactions:
not in the games I make.

I'm very happy with using local names (and I don't need "era appropriate" spelling either), but I hope this is still something that is WIP (I know officially everything is still WIP) because right now it's very inconsistent as several people have pointed out (e.g. Lübeck, Venesia, Moskva).

Also, optimally we could have dynamic naming maybe depending on predominant local culture or just primary culture of the owner. Even if there are only a handful of locations with dynamic names, but the mechanic is there for modders to go wild.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Is there any benefit for locations that have many trade routes passing through them? Even if the trade doesn't go specifically through that market. I can see a silk route (if you import silk into constantinople from a chinese market) earning money for Bukhara.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I was thinking it could encompass all of Transylvania, Wallachia and future Moldavia, the Danube Delta and maybe some other Eastern parts of Hungary too or the Bulgarian areas North of the Balkan mountains.
The Moldavian area belonging to Kaffa Market does strike me a bit weird, in my mind it'd seem more logical if it belonged to Kiev, but I guess it all depends on how they set up the infrastructure of the area, and also the Dnieper River could account for those locations belonging to Kaffa instead.

And we have to keep in mind that these aren't static nodes like in EU4. So even if they make a Szeben Market for the initial setup, it might shrink naturally once you unpause. And if they tweak the locations so that they stay with it 'artificially', we end up with sacrificing one aspect of historical accuracy for another.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
A tiny, historic nitpick - can you change the name of the Pest market to the Buda market? Buda was historically the capital of Hungary and much more important than Pest.
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Is there any benefit for locations that have many trade routes passing through them? Even if the trade doesn't go specifically through that market. I can see a silk route (if you import silk into constantinople from a chinese market) earning money for Bukhara.
The benefit would be that someone in Bukhara could presumably buy silk cheap in china, and sell it for a good profit to someone further west.

Then as trade range expands and infrastructure grows, eventually such routes would loose importance because say the portuguese set up trade posts that let them do the same over the ocean, thus bypassing the land route.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Not related to trade but the map. We see Moravia separate from Bohemia and Wales seperate from England. Is it likely we will see a new type of junior partner which is land your heir administers to become a better ruler?
 
How and when are markets destroyed? Can we force a trade rival to disband their market? Thinking Venice and Genoa

Its a decision by the country owning the location the market center is in.
 
  • 18Like
  • 6
Reactions:
Can trade go between two nodes without any connection and both without sea access? Like between Köln and Kyiv?

its not a wasteland between them
 
  • 16Like
  • 7Haha
  • 3
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
More serious question: Is it possible to create something like the "European Economic Area/European single market" if you control most of Europe?

sure, but that is one easy way to make most of europe very poor as they would have 0% access
 
  • 36Like
  • 7
  • 2Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
  • 28Like
  • 15Love
Reactions:
I don't know if you'll reach that deep in the comments Johan, but for example as France being covered by several markets :
With the goal in mind to build as much buildings as possible (so access to lots of stone for example) if it better to rely on the Paris market being as much expanded as possible to reach south of France for example, or is it better to "take" stone from the barcelona and english markets by building in these locations, so we can build France at the expanse of others ? AKA using the trade network as a way to deny resources to your enemies ?

I guess it requires to play the game to realize if it's better to have your country in a single market of covered by several small ones at the edges.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
If a feature can be automated for the player, then the same resources that go into making the automation will also benefit AI behaviour

its the same logic
 
  • 23Like
  • 6Love
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Time to end Seville monopoly in Iberia.

I assume you want to have one in Lisboa. Well, as Portugal is in my top 5 of countries I play, I'm not sure really about whether I want my own market or not. If I can buddy up with Castille I want to keep it for longer.. and also, as soon as I start getting things imported from africa, their pops and buildings helps keeping the demands high..
 
  • 27Like
  • 15
  • 5Love
Reactions:
Does the market access (don't know if that's the official name, the darkness of locations on the map) impact other stuff than 'hiw likely is this location to change market"?

how much goods you can actually buy from the market..
 
  • 23Like
  • 4
  • 1Love
Reactions:
Why doesn't Paris Market control any sea tile surrounding France. Is it because Paris is not a coastal city?

London is closer and probably more powerful
 
  • 24Like
  • 4
Reactions:
Then how is having control over markets of india,south africa, malaysia,australia and canada beneficial to the British colonial empire that exploits its colonies?

because it gives you $$$$$$$$$$$

control over cheap goods from them to whereever you want to sell them. I
 
  • 23Like
  • 16Love
  • 5
  • 1
Reactions:
How far and wide I can grow a market? Are there railroads at endgame?
 
I assume you want to have one in Lisboa. Well, as Portugal is in my top 5 of countries I play, I'm not sure really about whether I want my own market or not. If I can buddy up with Castille I want to keep it for longer.. and also, as soon as I start getting things imported from africa, their pops and buildings helps keeping the demands high..
That's your first mistake Johan. Buddying up with Castille. ;)

But I see your point. Its a bigger market than Lisbon at start so more costumers = more money.

But if I cut the supply, like embargo them before declaring war, because you know Olivença, besides affecting my income, would there be a change for destabilisation?
 
  • 2Like
  • 1Haha
Reactions: