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Tinto Talks #10 - 1st of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the final of four on the economy system for our secret game with the code name “Project Caesar”.

Today we will talk about all the things related to trade, including markets, merchants and trades. This talk is heavy on tooltip screenshots, and a lot of concepts to digest, so I recommend checking it through multiple times.

Markets
Let's start with the markets themselves. These are dynamic and will change through the playthrough, as countries can create new markets and disband their old if they so desire.

Each market has a center in a location, and the owner of that location is in control over that market.

Every location and coastal seazone will belong to the most fitting market, which depends on the market attraction of the market, the distance between the location and the market center, diplomatic factors, and more.

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The Riga market has control over much of the Baltic region in the start..

A market has merchants, who have a power depending on buildings and maritime presence in the market, and a merchant capacity which depends on the infrastructure for trade that country has in that market. The Merchant Power impacts in which order exports from a market are executed, as there is not an endless supply of goods in a market. The Merchant Capacity impacts how much goods the merchants can ship.

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This is the source of the Hanseatic League’s merchant capacity in Riga.



As you can see in the market screenshot, every good has a local price, and a supply vs demand value as well, let's take a look at the beer price in the next tooltip.

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Cheap beer, must be paradise…

Prices change every month towards the Target Price, which depends on the supply and demand of the goods in the market, and the current price stability. Price stability can change through the ages as well.

Supply & Demand
The supply of each good in a market depends on several factors.
  • The output from RGO’s
  • The output from buildings
  • Base Production
  • Burgher Trades

So what is ‘Base Production’? Some goods like clay, lumber, sand and stone are produced in every market, without the need for specific RGO’s, even if an RGO with that raw material can produce much more, and there are buildings that can be built to provide these as well.

Also, your burghers will trade on their own, if they have the capacity for it. They will attempt to address needs within the market, and can trade in a slightly shorter range, thus enriching their estate. There are laws and privileges that impact them, like the “Trade Monopolies” estate privilege that the Hanseatic League has granted in the earlier screenshot, which reduces their own merchant capacity by 25% to increase the capacity of the burghers by 100%

So what about demand? This is primarily from the maintenance, input, and construction of buildings, recruiting and maintaining armies and navies, and the demands of the population, but there are more sources as well.

Of course, trades themselves impact supply and demand as well.

Trade
You can use your merchant capacity in a market to either export a good from that market, or import a good from another market. Of course that market needs to be within your trade range, which is not world-spanning in 1337.

A trade is a variable amount of goods shipped from one market to another market, purchasing it for the local price in the exporting market. The longer the distance between the markets, the more capacity each good will require to ship, and higher the maintenance costs will be.

Trades have an impact on the last land location they are in before leaving the market, and the first one they enter in the importing market, giving boosts in development to them over time. A trade always has to trace a path on the map.

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Our merchant power makes us get the amount of goods we want in Riga.

There are also the Sound Tolls, if you pass through Öresund or the Bosphorus to consider.

Diplomacy and Trade
There are many diplomatic factors that impact the trade and market mechanics of Project Caesar.

First of all, you can “Deny Market Access” to a nation owning a market, which will reduce the attraction of their markets on your locations, but also make anyone with merchants in those markets upset with you.

You can also request and/or offer market access preference making it likelier for a country’s locations to belong in a certain market.

If you dislike paying Sound Tolls, you can always try to ask for exemption for it through diplomacy with the country controlling the strait.

Some countries have isolated themselves completely, so you need to negotiate a specific exception to allow you to export or import from their markets.

There is also the possibility to embargo a country, which would block the merchants from that country to trade in your markets, and also to not be allowed to move through your country. Of course, this a legit casus belli, so use with care.

Other aspects to Trade
Each market can have specific goods banned for export or import, with one common example being that muslim markets will ban import and export of wine, beer and liquor.

We mentioned in an earlier Tinto Talks that Markets will have stockpiles, so that surplus can be stored for a rainy day. There are buildings that will increase the amount that can be stored.

There is also food in the markets, with prices adapting to the supply and demand of food as well.

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Västra Götaland är Sveriges Kornbod!

There are also automation options where you can assign trading completely to the AI. You can also lock some trades so that the AI will not interfere with them.

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be talking about mercenaries, levies and regulars!
 
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How will army supplies work in this "project ceasar". Will it depend on the market, distance and terrain hostility or even all of them? And if it is gonna work like a supply train where you need clear and protected passages for the suplies to come throught completely or a tottaly different concept?
 
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One thing I'm wondering regarding cost for shipping goods: is there are significant difference between sea and land shipping?

Here's an example from the early period of the game (Hanseatic League):
A Cog was able to move 40 tons of goods with a crew of 12 men. To move that same amount over land, you needed 40 wagons, 40 men and 160 horses, which was obviously much more expensive.

Trade over sea should be noticeably more efficient than land trade, not just allow access to way more markets all over the world.
 
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I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion here, but EU5s economy seems unnecessarily complicated. It sounds cool on paper, but after the initial novelty wears off in 30 minutes of the first game, people will just want a "click core all, send merchant and forget" system.

All of this elaborate stuff will end up being a hassle to calculate and people will just play by simple rules of thumb they don't understand which they found on google.

Case in point: How many people play EU4 economy any more efficiently than "spam light ships for trade, I don't know how many, who cares, send 20 that sounds about right".
 
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What happens when you are at war with someone in your own market?

You fight a war normally? If you control the market center you can always embargo them ;)
 
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How frequent locations swap between markets? It may be tedious if they change every month tbh, but dynamic markets are awesome
 
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I know Johan kinda said San Marino wouldn’t be in project Caesar but the small nation in the Venetian market looks suspiciously like San Marino (I also saw Andorra but Johan already confirmed that)

Edit: San Marino is much closer to the coast then the nation shown here, however it’s still roughly the same size as San Marino so I don’t know.
 

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So, the last/first land province in the exporting/importing market profit from the trade. Does that include how it works for landlocked markets, simply increasing development in only two neighbouring provinces that happen to be on the border of the influence of the two markets?

How about markets in between? Does Praha here benefit from trade between Koln and Pest?
 
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Hm, the low countries are almost entirely in London’s market at game start? That’s interesting.

How do you ”declare independence” economically by creating your own market?
 
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Were Lowlands dependent on English trade at that time? Maybe it's better to separate them?

Yeah, we had seperate markets before, but removed it as the low lands got too small and weak, as London, Cologne and Lubeck would become stronger.

These setups with markets you see now is 110% likely to not be what the game will look like when its released.

And remember, the gameplay is dynamic, so markets change over time as you and the AI plays.
 
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Can you raid the trade routes to get the goods or is it just privateers that give a boost to gold? Do you need ships for overseas trade? Can you smuggle goods that are banned for increased gold? If not now, maybe in the future? Maybe under espionage or diplomacy.
 
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If a country bans a certain good, could we "Opium War" them to force them to accept the good? Also, in the example of muslim markets banning alcohol: Is the muslim market just the muslim part of the market? Like if the Ottomans conquer christian lands in the balkans, will those provinces still be able to produce and import wine/beer?
 
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