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Tinto Talks #10 - 1st of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the final of four on the economy system for our secret game with the code name “Project Caesar”.

Today we will talk about all the things related to trade, including markets, merchants and trades. This talk is heavy on tooltip screenshots, and a lot of concepts to digest, so I recommend checking it through multiple times.

Markets
Let's start with the markets themselves. These are dynamic and will change through the playthrough, as countries can create new markets and disband their old if they so desire.

Each market has a center in a location, and the owner of that location is in control over that market.

Every location and coastal seazone will belong to the most fitting market, which depends on the market attraction of the market, the distance between the location and the market center, diplomatic factors, and more.

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The Riga market has control over much of the Baltic region in the start..

A market has merchants, who have a power depending on buildings and maritime presence in the market, and a merchant capacity which depends on the infrastructure for trade that country has in that market. The Merchant Power impacts in which order exports from a market are executed, as there is not an endless supply of goods in a market. The Merchant Capacity impacts how much goods the merchants can ship.

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This is the source of the Hanseatic League’s merchant capacity in Riga.



As you can see in the market screenshot, every good has a local price, and a supply vs demand value as well, let's take a look at the beer price in the next tooltip.

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Cheap beer, must be paradise…

Prices change every month towards the Target Price, which depends on the supply and demand of the goods in the market, and the current price stability. Price stability can change through the ages as well.

Supply & Demand
The supply of each good in a market depends on several factors.
  • The output from RGO’s
  • The output from buildings
  • Base Production
  • Burgher Trades

So what is ‘Base Production’? Some goods like clay, lumber, sand and stone are produced in every market, without the need for specific RGO’s, even if an RGO with that raw material can produce much more, and there are buildings that can be built to provide these as well.

Also, your burghers will trade on their own, if they have the capacity for it. They will attempt to address needs within the market, and can trade in a slightly shorter range, thus enriching their estate. There are laws and privileges that impact them, like the “Trade Monopolies” estate privilege that the Hanseatic League has granted in the earlier screenshot, which reduces their own merchant capacity by 25% to increase the capacity of the burghers by 100%

So what about demand? This is primarily from the maintenance, input, and construction of buildings, recruiting and maintaining armies and navies, and the demands of the population, but there are more sources as well.

Of course, trades themselves impact supply and demand as well.

Trade
You can use your merchant capacity in a market to either export a good from that market, or import a good from another market. Of course that market needs to be within your trade range, which is not world-spanning in 1337.

A trade is a variable amount of goods shipped from one market to another market, purchasing it for the local price in the exporting market. The longer the distance between the markets, the more capacity each good will require to ship, and higher the maintenance costs will be.

Trades have an impact on the last land location they are in before leaving the market, and the first one they enter in the importing market, giving boosts in development to them over time. A trade always has to trace a path on the map.

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Our merchant power makes us get the amount of goods we want in Riga.

There are also the Sound Tolls, if you pass through Öresund or the Bosphorus to consider.

Diplomacy and Trade
There are many diplomatic factors that impact the trade and market mechanics of Project Caesar.

First of all, you can “Deny Market Access” to a nation owning a market, which will reduce the attraction of their markets on your locations, but also make anyone with merchants in those markets upset with you.

You can also request and/or offer market access preference making it likelier for a country’s locations to belong in a certain market.

If you dislike paying Sound Tolls, you can always try to ask for exemption for it through diplomacy with the country controlling the strait.

Some countries have isolated themselves completely, so you need to negotiate a specific exception to allow you to export or import from their markets.

There is also the possibility to embargo a country, which would block the merchants from that country to trade in your markets, and also to not be allowed to move through your country. Of course, this a legit casus belli, so use with care.

Other aspects to Trade
Each market can have specific goods banned for export or import, with one common example being that muslim markets will ban import and export of wine, beer and liquor.

We mentioned in an earlier Tinto Talks that Markets will have stockpiles, so that surplus can be stored for a rainy day. There are buildings that will increase the amount that can be stored.

There is also food in the markets, with prices adapting to the supply and demand of food as well.

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Västra Götaland är Sveriges Kornbod!

There are also automation options where you can assign trading completely to the AI. You can also lock some trades so that the AI will not interfere with them.

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be talking about mercenaries, levies and regulars!
 
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How will market control work when the market owner is a subject country (i.e. Ragusa being a venetian vassal in 1337)?
 
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One thing I'm wondering regarding cost for shipping goods: is there are significant difference between sea and land shipping?

Here's an example from the early period of the game (Hanseatic League):
A Cog was able to move 40 tons of goods with a crew of 12 men. To move that same amount over land, you needed 40 wagons, 40 men and 160 horses, which was obviously much more expensive.

Trade over sea should be noticeably more efficient than land trade, not just allow access to way more markets all over the world.
Dang, that really puts into perspective how useful sea travel was. And the land group would move slower too. I hope this is represented, and that sea freight gets even more efficient as the game goes on due to improved shipping technology. The dutch fluyt was a major advance in this regard.

BTW, where did you get the numbers for 40 wagons, 40 men, and 160 horses? Not that I doubt, but I want a concrete source to point to when I talk to others in the future.
Dang. Are sounds easily moddable at least so we can add as many tolls we want?
 
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are sound tolls only limited to straits or could other countries get a fee for allowing the trade to pass on their land during the transportation?

currently straits only..
 
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One thing I'm wondering regarding cost for shipping goods: is there are significant difference between sea and land shipping?

Here's an example from the early period of the game (Hanseatic League):
A Cog was able to move 40 tons of goods with a crew of 12 men. To move that same amount over land, you needed 40 wagons, 40 men and 160 horses, which was obviously much more expensive.

Trade over sea should be noticeably more efficient than land trade, not just allow access to way more markets all over the world.
I wonder how significant rivers will be in this too since they significantly ease some of the logistics of trade
 
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What's going on with the borders in Britain, Why is there one Wales instead of two, (The welsh Marches and Principality), and what is happening in Scotland
Wales ceased to be Independent in 1284 after the defeat of Dafydd ap Gruffudd. From what I understand, the Marcher Lords were legally part of Wales and followed the hybrid English-Welsh law instituted by the Statute of Rhuddlan (basically Welsh civil law, English criminal law). Long story short Llywelyn ap Gruffudd was technically a vassal of the English, so when he rebelled his land was thus forfeit and reverted to the crown, thus the English king was the Prince of Wales (Tywysog Cymru). With the exception of Gwent I believe (which I think was legally ambiguous) it was understood that the marcher lords resided outside of the Kingdom of England but swore fealty and homage to the English King since their lands were "owned" by the English king. If you wanted to represent the Royal ownership of the land, it would probably still make sense to have Wales be a personal union of England, with the various marcher lords within it as vassals to Wales (and thus to England since the English King is the Prince of Wales), since unless I'm wrong, the marcher lords were in fact subject to the statute of Rhuddlan.
 
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Amazing TT. Now that we have this amazing map, I am glad to see that the Kingdom of Majorca may at least exist (as a vassal or independent as it was in 1337. I think this could help give some air to Iberia as the rest looks quite similar to the 1444 start date of a certain game that is in no way related to this secret project :p
 
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The market around sourthern France in particual is interesting. There's seemingly some areas that are not wasteland that don't seem to have their part in a nearby market. Could it be due to being sieged? I am also curious about the meaning of the stars inside the market centers. Likely the importance of that center compared to others, but I might be missing something

its wastelands only.

the stars inside market centers I got no clue about what they are, gotta ask @SaintDaveUK but he is away right now.
 
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I'm also wondering about the Silk Road. Given that terra incognita will still exist, and European traders can't go to China directly at the beginning of the game, will the game be able to simulate the demand for Asian goods in Europe? Can a significant demand for say silk in Constantinople prompt the AI in Persia to import it from further east, prompting the actors in that further east market to import it from China and move it west?
 
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What in particular stands out to you?

There's definitely much to cover, it's a map of borders in all of Europe! A big sight for us. What stands out to me is that Hungary and Lithuania have no internal borders. It's not like they were uniquely centralized in this time period (IIRC) so I hope they don't end up inadvertently overpowered by not having to wrangle feudal subjects like France or Poland.

Yeah that's a good point. Similarly, I hope desert and steppe provinces cannot magic lumber for shipbuilding out of thin air.
I recall that Hungary, like England, actually was more centralized than most in the time period, with way greater control over its vassals.
Not sure about Lithuania though.
 
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Will the market owner be able to set export caps for certain nations?

Example: Austria is importing too much of your iron for their army and now you don't have enough for your own army expansion, so you limit them to 4 iron per month.

Should also give a CB, but wouldn't be a total embargo.
 
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Any chance of differentiating the land and sea colours on the trade map mode betore release? Looks a bit weird right now.

Why? You need to see the color of which market it belongs to, and if its land or sea does not matter, only the market access does.
 
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If my country is located on the edge of a market, so that my locations have very low market access, can I create an independent market on my own to improve market access of my locations? How difficult is this action?
Is it possible that I have created my own market, but due to the strong attraction of the nearby market, most of my locations will be forced into that market again? (I hope it's true)
 
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Wales ceased to be Independent in 1284 after the defeat of Dafydd ap Gruffudd. From what I understand, the Marcher Lords were legally part of Wales and followed the hybrid English-Welsh law instituted by the Statute of Rhuddlan (basically Welsh civil law, English criminal law). Long story short Llywelyn ap Gruffudd was technically a vassal of the English, so when he rebelled his land was thus forfeit and reverted to the crown, thus the English king was the Prince of Wales (Tywysog Cymru). With the exception of Gwent I believe (which I think was legally ambiguous) it was understood that the marcher lords resided outside of the Kingdom of England but swore fealty and homage to the English King since their lands were "owned" by the English king. If you wanted to represent the Royal ownership of the land, it would probably still make sense to have Wales be a personal union of England, with the various marcher lords within it as vassals to Wales (and thus to England since the English King is the Prince of Wales), since unless I'm wrong, the marcher lords were in fact subject to the statute of Rhuddlan.
I understand that. Wales like one United state, which should be divided into at least 2
 
You also mention that trades must always physically pass through two localities. In the example you've given this is Riga and London, two market centres. But I presume from the way you've phrased it that this isn't always the case. And it's possible for a trade between the Riga and London markets to go through Reval and Hull?
 
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"Dynamic Market" ... "New market can be fromed as new countries appeard and some can desapear as some countries fall too" OK sounds cool, but lets say :

1- "You are a great power like i don't know France or the UK and you are so much power full and evryone want to trade with you, is it possible that your trade region can be way WAY bigger than other, like in later game and for exemple colonies want to trade or be part of trade regions of their other lords ? (like i think it will be more profitable for Hong Kong or Boston to be part of the UK trade at least in early game)

2- Or for an over exmple :
"lets say the Ottomans start to rise and like in history start to denied trade or more made the price of passage more expensive throught Bosphorus, is the trade region of Constantinople will, lets say, be only at the size of most of the Ottomans Empire and maybe some vassals, and in the other hand when the trade will rise again throught the passage will the region will be bigger and bigger and start to be dominant like before ?"

3- i assume that "Tolerance of some faith" and "cultural despute / acceptation" or "rivalery and embargo" have a WAY bigger impact on trade regions, like the Ottomans will mostly likely not be appable to trade with most of Europe at least in early due to faith issues and lets say rebels state where rebelions is on going or culture is not aprove will be maybe not in our market or trade will be less effective if they are still in ?
 
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If a country bans a certain good, could we "Opium War" them to force them to accept the good? Also, in the example of muslim markets banning alcohol: Is the muslim market just the muslim part of the market? Like if the Ottomans conquer christian lands in the balkans, will those provinces still be able to produce and import wine/beer?
Hopefully this will be a player policy decision: Do you let those provinces be, or do you crack down on the vices of the infidels?
More generally, will there be cultural or religious taboos on goods like in Vic3? So that muslim provinces in a Christian controlled market still don't consume alcohol.
 
This definitely makes me want to make a mod where the number of starting markets is tripled or more. I wonder how much it impacts performance.

Not super much, but consider that the AI creates and disbands marketd depending on what is optimal for then, i'm not sure how your mod looks like after a decade or two has progressed in a campaign.
 
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BTW, where did you get the numbers for 40 wagons, 40 men, and 160 horses? Not that I doubt, but I want a concrete source to point to when I talk to others in the future.
This number specifically is from a youtube video by a German Medieval historian. This Hanseatic League website lists the Cog as having a capacity of 100 tons, which it says is equal to 50 wagons with four horses each. I guess the exact numbers will depend on what good you're moving and maybe the Cog using "2 tons" as its load unit causes some confusion.
 
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