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Tinto Talks #24 - 7th of August 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

proximity_map.png

The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

proximity_kalmar.png

Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

map_of_harbors.png

The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

bristol_useful.png

Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


venetian_arsenal.png

This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


blockade_tt.png

This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

maritime_change.png

I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

blockade_capacity.png

This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

blockade_required.png

There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

venice_naval_range.png

Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

ships_builder.png

WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
 
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Yes, as the game is still under development and not released. I've just created a ticket this afternoon named 'Improve natural harbors', so we'll be taking feedback about that into account.
Sweet. I don’t know when the Pacific Northwest will be covered in Tinto Maps, but because I remember being bummed about this in EU4— Coos Bay (on the southern Oregon coast) is the largest natural harbor between San Francisco and Seattle, and should 100% get some modifier for that.
 
Now I notice that they are actually buildable! I have to assume you have come to the name Hulk by accident, and mean something else. What type of vessel are you trying to represent with this? As I mention above, Hulks were specifically old ships, usually old ships of the line, that were worn out and no longer suitable for active service at sea, and would be restricted to harbour duties. Masts would usually be removed.

They only really started to be found in harbours (at least around Britain) after the practice of 'rebuilding' older ships ended, in the middle of the 18th century. Before then, old ships were usually dismantled, and the decent timber put to one side for reuse, the rest sold for other purposes/disposed of. The ship would then be "rebuilt" often years later, to usually a completely new design, but with the same name as before. I use the quote marks because it was all a bit of a fiction intended to not alarm parliament over the number of new ships being built. It was as expensive, if not more so, than just building a new ship. After the practice stopped, the navy found use for otherwise redundant old hulls in harbours, and the hulk was born (kind of - there would have been some, in much smaller numbers, before this)
They refer to the earlier transport/cargo ships of northern Europe.
 
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Malta is one of the 63 locations having 100% Harbor Suitability, yes.
If possible, could you mention which (if any) locations in India are among these 63? As a guess, I would say Bombay (if that's a seperate location from Thane), Cochin, Masulipatam and Cambay (till the buildup of silt led to its rapid decline by the end of the game's timeframe) at the least?
 
Their most important characteristics is that they transport armies better.
What navy was building such "transport" ships during this period instead of levying merchants for transport or sending men by warship?
 
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Looks good so far

1. how does slave raiding work, can pirates do it as well as nations?

2. Would also like the ask if crusades and jihads have their own mechanics instead of just a little buff, like no one can attack someone of the same faith if they are on crusade or they will be excommunicated.
 
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i want to play this game so badly, it'll easily be the greatest grand strategy game for the next decade
are we even halfway through the dev diaries yet?
Per another post buried somewhere here now, we're not even gonna see an announcement of the game until 2025.
 
Can you create a navy template and make the stack stick to it so that when you capture/lose ships it splits them off/starts building new ones (that link up with the navy when they are built)

I always found this aspect of eu4 navies extremely annoying, having to build, consolidate, and redo the orders after losing ships
 
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@Johan I don't know if anyone has already asked the question but will low level ports have the capacity to hold, for example, 200 ships like in EU4 (where a player could fit 300 ships in a port in the Andaman Islands)?
 
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1. Regarding Hulks specifically: hulks were old ships that were deemed no longer fit for service at sea, and were typically either completely dismasted or fitted with much smaller masts for training purposes, and were not intended to put to sea again under their own power (sometimes they were towed to a different port). They were used in harbours for a variety of purposes - store depots; receiving ships for newly pressed sailors so they couldn't escape until being assigned to an active service ship; prisons for captured enemy combatants (both sailors and soldiers); they were never used in combat, being either totally or almost totally disarmed (with the exception of those hulks fitted as 'blockships', which were simply floating batteries used for harbour defence - they would never leave harbour), so why are we seeing them in these tooltips? And how are they obtained? No one built a hulk, but they were a way of reusing an old or captured ship that couldn't be used in an active way...
Hulks also refer to an old class of cargo vessel. You'll notice that Wikipedia has two different definitions for hulk referring to ship type. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_(ship_type) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_(medieval_ship_type)
 
Yeah it's awesome to see natural ports added, but there are a lot of odd choices, I have suggestions on ports that should be upgraded (Green), Upgraded A Lot (Blue) or Downgraded (red)

Starting of with the Adriatic:View attachment 1172691
Major Upgrade:
Pola (huge port, important Venetian possesion, in socialist Yugoslavia one of the major shipbuilding centers od the world alongside Rijeka)
Bar (the most important port of Montenegro and neighboring Serbia, with the Belgrade-Bar railway being built specifically to connect to it)
Lezhe ( the location of Shengjin/Medua, a very important natural harbour that historically didn't live up to its potential - still, acquiring it was one of the chief political goals of Serbia in the late 19th and early 20th centuries)

Upgrade:
Rijeka (already a decent port, but should be better still - the chief port of Western Balkans since the 18th century)
Zadar (Major port from antiquity until today)
"Metković" (location should be Ploče, another important port, historically served Hum and Bosnia, and still the most important one for Bosnia, over their own Neum)
Kotor (another major port since antiquity, also includes numerous other small port cities. The Bay of Kotor offers incredible natural defenses almost unmatched outside of Norwegian fjords- the only reason I'm not calling for a Major Upgrade here is that very big ships struggle in it)
Durres (Major port since antiquity, Albania's most important one and major Venetian enclave)
Vlore (major port)
Corfu (one of Venice's most prized possessions, major port)
Bari (chief Adriatic port of Southern Italy)
Ancona (historically a maritime republic, one of Venice's key rivals in the Adriatic)

Downgrade:
Pazin (the town itself is not on the coast. The only port is Labin, which can't compare with Pola and Rijeka)
Kaseg (ports like Karlobag are simply not relevant, Lika is a mountainous region where most of the population lives inland)
Dubrovnik (I'm calling for a very small nerf here, but despite being a maritime republic, Ragusa isn't an amazing natural port, as is reflected in its decline since the fall of the Republic)
Berat and Gjirokaster (neither are coastal, and their coasts have no major ports or towns - Berat's especially was a malaria-ridden swamp. Other ports in Albania were far more important)
Not noted on the map, but Skadar could also be nerfed, as the city's natural ports are in Bar and Shengjin, in other locations

NW France (&Wales)

View attachment 1172743

Major Upgrade:
Most ports are well done here, but two of France's largest ports are missing- namely Lorient (founded in the 1600s in the Hennebont location and served as one of its chief New World ports) and Cherbourg ( the most important military port of northern France, key point of dispute between France and England, major transatlantic port)

Upgrade:
Other important port cities (though less so than the two above) are Vannes and Saint-Malo (home of the famous corsairs), which should also be buffed.

The Lisieux location includes Honfleur, a major port city and should also be buffed.

Another important port that developed late into the period is Saint Nazaire in Guerende - though the swamps around it prevent me from suggesting a Major Upgrade

Finally, Swansea has a long history as a port, the most important one in the heavily populated SE Wales.

North Sea
View attachment 1172761

Major Upgrade:
Hull (important port city and the Humber Estuary)

Calais and Dunkirk (important port cities, Calais had an important role as an English outpost while Dunkirk was a major French military port)
Brugges (important trade center and port, also contains Sluys, another major port)

Upgrade:
Hastings and Hythe are Cinque ports (and Hythe also includes Romney) and should be buffed to account for it. Yarmouth grew into a major shipping port and admiralty center, and Ipswich includes Felixstowe, one of the largest UK ports today.

The Belgian coast as a whole feels underrated here, Veurne and Oostende should see buffs as well, or at least the latter one.

Den Haag isn't a big port, but the location includes Delft - which was.
Den Helder is the home to the Dutch main naval base today - it could even see a Major Upgrade.
Kempen was a major city and port early in the period, I could see it warranting a buff.

It's odd to have Frisia have no natural ports at all, either Harlingen or Sneek/Stavoren should see a small buff.


Downgrade:

Geertruidenberg is far less important than other ports in Western Netherlands, it should definitely receive a small nerf despite the strategic location

The much more important nerf is the one to Sant Niklaas, which I truly don't understand why it got such a good port - Waasland is a poor, marshy region. It should be the worst of the Belgian sea locations

Balkan Black Sea:
View attachment 1172779
Varna and Burgas are the two most important ports in Bulgaria for most of the period, and are both naturally predisposed as such, they should receive buffs.

On the other hand, Dobruja always had less important ports, thus my suggestion to nerf Harsova and even Tulcea (despite the strategic importance of the Danube Delta - Chilia always utilized the location better). Were a Constata location to be added (as it really should), it should be a good natural port, while Pangalia also gets nerfed.

The Aegean:
View attachment 1172792


Major Upgrade:
Methoni (Methoni, Koroni and Pylos/Navarino were all major Venetian outposts, and Pylos especially has a natural harbour used since antiquity)

Rhodes (obvious, Rhodes was a major naval power in its own right and it's harbour is legendary)

Samos and Chios (both important ports with huge navies, Chios also includes the wealthy islet of Psara, which once had hundreds of ships as the third biggest Greek fleet, before its destruction in the Greek revolution)

Ermioni and Damala ( while Ermioni is merely a decent port and Damala not one at all, they contain Hydra and Spetses and Poros respectively, the islands with the largest merchant fleets later in the period, which brought them significant wealth)

Upgrade:
Demetrias (Volos is one of the most important ports of modern Greece, and it's bay offers natural protection)

Patras (another strategically located major port - Nafpaktos can get a buff as well)

Kavala (important port city in a bay)

Ainos (important naval outpost)

A few other Aegean islands, most notably Naxos, could also get buffs given how important the sea is for them and how many good ports there are throughout the many islands.

Downgrade:
Stomio (should be Platamon anyways): no notable ports developed in Thessaly proper at any point from Antiquity until today, should be a terrible port

Turkish Black Sea:
View attachment 1172797

Sinope and Samsoun are easily the most important ports and cities here, and have been for centuries, they should be buffed compared to nearby locations.

Others:
Also, it feels silly to screenshot single locations, but Cartagena (the seat of the Spanish navy, their most important Mediterranean port and one of the two most important in the country alongside Ferrol) and Livorno (one of the most important Italian port cities since the 16th century) should both see Major Upgrades, that will also hopefully encourage their historical development. Montpellier or Melgueil could also receive a small buff, representing the port of Sete and the sea end of the future Canal de Midi.
Thanks for the detailed feedback!

And, in general, to all the other posts regarding natural harbors; as I said yesterday, we're taking note of them.
 
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Its cool to see harbour impacting both control and trade.

Will they also have an impact on naval range? And by extension on exploration and colonisation?