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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

1710317019801.png
 
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On one hand, the individual Maldives islands are indeed small. On the other hand they do form rather widepsread atolls that could still be visually represented on the map somehow if an island as small as Car Nicobar is.
That sounds like a good argumentation, but, upon closer inspection the maldives (#3) are 300 km² (with the largest 7.3km² and only 9 over 3km²), while the nicobars are 1850 km², great nicobars 922 (#1) or car nicobars 127 km² (#2).

So while the shape of the coastal tiles around the Maldives is definitely strange, the fact that none of its actual islands are visible on this scale isn't.

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I don't know if anyone has noticed this since there is almost 40 pages but China's population on the screenshot is almost identical to the 1351 population estimate for China, which hint at the game starting in the 1350s.

I wouldn't draw conclusions from that due to Red Turban Rebellion and also Black Death (though its impact in China was much less severe than in Europe - or less well known/documented).
 
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Have you thought about renaming some of these groups? I wonder if there might not be a better word than peasants for, well, peasants. A word that could encompass those farmers who were not in the lower social strata, but who were also not members of the nobility.
Peasant is an inclusive term. It simply describes a rural person that performs subsistence labour. In an archetypical feudal/pre-modern society such as England, peasant could describe both villeins, which were effectively slaves, and yeomen, who owned everything they needed to live comfortably by their own means, and everything in between. As for social status, well, it was something of a binary thing. You were either a clergyman, you owned a noble title, or you were "the rest".
 
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Literacy = tech doesn't sit well with me either. But the only suggestions I can come up with is something with multiple needs for increase in innovation/science. So you can't just turn literacy up to 100%, while whatever else is at 20% and expect much results beyond perhaps something short term to catch up if literacy was what kept inno/science relatively stagnant.

literacy is one factor, not the only factor
 
not in political mapmode
Will we get a CK3 style dynamic visuals ?
In eu4 the terrain mapmode was overlooked by most people, despite it being designed with textures to be immersive.

CK3 presented the advantage of showing the terrain on all map modes when zooming in, and the selected mapmode when zooming out
 
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Famine, War & Disease helps a lot there.
Hard agree. Assuming a population of 350 million people in 1400 (via Wikipedia). 0.003 yearly growth over 500 years gets you 1 billion(the approximate population in 1800). 0.002 gets you 750 million, and 0.004 gets you 1.7 billion (which is the upper bound of 19th century population).

Any small variation from the norm will have massive impacts late game because population works like compounding interest. A slightly less bloody 30 years war could mean a Europe with hundreds of millions of people. No Mingsplosion could do the same for China.
The base growth must be carefully set for sure.
Otherwise the conditions mentioned make sense, like if the Black Death had not happened, if the 30 years war had not happened or less bloodily, the population would have reached the 19th century level much earlier.

The European population for example reached again its pre-level after about a century.
Native Americans populations took about 4 centuries to recover from its précolombien level. European diseases struck as hard and even more for them as the Black Death did for Europeans, and on top of that they were constantly exposed to new waves of disease and to exploitation, which drastically altered the population growth.

All this being highly hypothetical since there is a ratio of 1-4 between historians/economists on precolumbian numbers
 
That sounds like a good argumentation, but, upon closer inspection the maldives (#3) are 300 km² (with the largest 7.3km² and only 9 over 3km²), while the nicobars are 1850 km², great nicobars 922 (#1) or car nicobars 127 km² (#2).

So while the shape of the coastal tiles around the Maldives is definitely strange, the fact that none of its actual islands are visible on this scale isn't.
Could have something to do with the part where I was comparing the entire atolls to Car Nicobar (which is just 15 km across at the widest point) while already mentioning myself that the individual Maldives islands are small. And asked for the atolls as a whole to represented in some way, like their outline or something. Looks like you didn't inspect what you were replying to closely enough.
 
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If Tibet is a tributary and Yunnan a vassal I think the borders are more or less those.
why would Yunnan be a vassal of Yuan? why shouldn't other "chinese states" be vassals?

the truth is, these borders don't exactly match with any year, so there will always be controversy (maybe this is the controversy Johan anticipated). the main argument in favour of an earlier 1300s start date is Delhi owning Bahmanis land... but then the border in Bengal doesn't match. The border in Khmer looks to me as if it is post 1357 as well.

I think it would be weird for the start date to be set over 100 years before EU4, and for that I believe it will be late 1300s, which the border in China and Indochina also seems to support. It has great potential and is much closer to the actual scope of Europa Universalis, which is the beginning of the discovery age.

Perhaps in today's Tinto Talk we will see a bit more of the map? I'm quite excited.
 
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why would Yunnan be a vassal of Yuan? why shouldn't other "chinese states" be vassals?
I don't know. Because Paradox decided it would be better for Yunnan to be represented as a vassal, and in this time period what makes an integral part of someone's nation and what makes an autonomous region that can be represented as various degrees of vassalage is a matter of debate.

This is probably why the Indian borders are so hard to read. A lot of those statelets might be Delhi vassals that Paradox made that way to represent a tenuous hold on their conquests that they later lost, but it's not like we can tell from that map. What's impossible is for part of the map to have some borders from the 1330s and others from the 1370s.

My feel is something between 1337 and 1356, and maybe more of the latter because it still seems weird to me that they would have the game start off with the Black Death and thus killing half of your population within 15 years of play. The map would still match for the most part because the Indochinese border with a big-ish Khmer Empire and balkanized Siam also fits the earlier 14th century, and the other oddities can be explained with Paradox turning areas into vassals from nations that are meant to be portrayed as somewhat weak or destined to internal turmoil (so, Yuan and Delhi, even though Delhi should actually be still very strong in 1337).
 
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My feel is something between 1337 and 1356, and maybe more of the latter because it still seems weird to me that they would have the game start off with the Black Death and thus killing half of your population within 15 years of play.
Exactly. Yet another great reason why this is most likely second half of 14th century. Imagine a game which introduces pops... before or during the black death. That would be just giving more wood to the fire.
 
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If we're going to have a population mechanic, the scholarly question "How many people were around immediately before and after the black death" is one of the more studied questions of the era. We likely have better population numbers for this period than any time before the 16th century
 
On one hand, the individual Maldives islands are indeed small. On the other hand they do form rather widepsread atolls that could still be visually represented on the map somehow if an island as small as Car Nicobar is.
That’s right, besides, representing the atolls would probably be desirable for most of the pacific islands.
Having modded the map in eu4, each of these and the Maldives represented less than 1px of the world (largely exagerated in vanilla due to the necessity to have a sufficient clickable area ).
 
why would Yunnan be a vassal of Yuan? why shouldn't other "chinese states" be vassals?

the truth is, these borders don't exactly match with any year, so there will always be controversy (maybe this is the controversy Johan anticipated). the main argument in favour of an earlier 1300s start date is Delhi owning Bahmanis land... but then the border in Bengal doesn't match. The border in Khmer looks to me as if it is post 1357 as well.

I think it would be weird for the start date to be set over 100 years before EU4, and for that I believe it will be late 1300s, which the border in China and Indochina also seems to support. It has great potential and is much closer to the actual scope of Europa Universalis, which is the beginning of the discovery age.

Perhaps in today's Tinto Talk we will see a bit more of the map? I'm quite excited.
Whatever year it is, there is a unified power in China. So it’s not in the middle of the yuan fall. Either the Ming, or the Yuan before the fall.
Dali being present, it not as a vassal, would mean mid 13th century. This would be a strange choice as it’s about halfway through CK period.

Besides, that would not be compatible with the rise of the ottomans or Russia. Which are most likely necessary in a game featuring Australia, America and Polynesia, which means that goes well into the early modern period.

Also, as mentioned in a comment above, this Is doubtful that it would start before the Black Death, which drastically altered not only population but also, and more importantly, the economic organization and the balance between aristocracy and serfdom (which was abolished in Western Europe), leading to the economic boom of the 15th century.

Finally, I don’t really see how they would model a state as the HRE before 1356, which did not have the Golden Bull and the electors officially set until then.

1356 would be, in my opinion, a good date, as it’s after the economic shift of the Black Death, and a set HRE organization. Although too early for the European colonization.
Early Ming unification, otherwise. Easier to represent the trade routes Shift from the Mongol highway to the South China Sea and Indian Ocean, the end of the Pax Mongolica and of the political organization of the east.