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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
D4RGBO3N1xr8MhsfaTGT5DNNERZhnjijvnx4KgvFi0c2ZFBuMEvrfiht3yyayH6EloTJWJNKEh1VSCH_LsaJWUASqg1j0thITZivoIM3jtOzKM-IGlJFubDx6UZP-iMTRXmnCWAVsm5uKdmQD5F77i8


Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

TX1paNgsYnH4SO0ZWP2NOrbtNa8O20QO9w-Ps-VwjSN8uhMZca-pxt0P2kND5gOnejQfklB6AQpb_C3XH2cB9hF_6sd6GSxbsgygmOmvnUbPCfgWS_BvIq7fPQzBYgy0mYwAccRxR-vFvYfL5jptBMs



There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

1710317019801.png
 
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I'm at a loss as to why there would be hundreds of thousands of Bulgarians in Constantinople. When I saw the chart I though it was Thrace, but if it's a location then I would guess it would be Adrianople or something. Then the percentages would make more sense but still not the absolute numbers.
I though it was showing the population of the whole Byzantine empire
 
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Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
D4RGBO3N1xr8MhsfaTGT5DNNERZhnjijvnx4KgvFi0c2ZFBuMEvrfiht3yyayH6EloTJWJNKEh1VSCH_LsaJWUASqg1j0thITZivoIM3jtOzKM-IGlJFubDx6UZP-iMTRXmnCWAVsm5uKdmQD5F77i8


Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

TX1paNgsYnH4SO0ZWP2NOrbtNa8O20QO9w-Ps-VwjSN8uhMZca-pxt0P2kND5gOnejQfklB6AQpb_C3XH2cB9hF_6sd6GSxbsgygmOmvnUbPCfgWS_BvIq7fPQzBYgy0mYwAccRxR-vFvYfL5jptBMs



There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

View attachment 1094402

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
D4RGBO3N1xr8MhsfaTGT5DNNERZhnjijvnx4KgvFi0c2ZFBuMEvrfiht3yyayH6EloTJWJNKEh1VSCH_LsaJWUASqg1j0thITZivoIM3jtOzKM-IGlJFubDx6UZP-iMTRXmnCWAVsm5uKdmQD5F77i8


Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

TX1paNgsYnH4SO0ZWP2NOrbtNa8O20QO9w-Ps-VwjSN8uhMZca-pxt0P2kND5gOnejQfklB6AQpb_C3XH2cB9hF_6sd6GSxbsgygmOmvnUbPCfgWS_BvIq7fPQzBYgy0mYwAccRxR-vFvYfL5jptBMs



There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

View attachment 1094402
Con
Will the economy aspect have any... graphs? I'm also curious if the buildings will have more variety than one good per province similar to games like EU4 (I have played very little and might be wrong)
C
 
Concerning population. when doing global conquests in late-game, would the game be able to handle population values higher than 32-bit max? Could we see values in the upper billions without the numbers going negative?
 
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Will there be urban terrain types to represent major cities like in the Anbennar mod?

urban is not a terrain type in project caesar, but there are other factors impacting cities.
 
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urban is not a terrain type in project caesar, but there are other factors impacting cities.

to be fair, especially now with such small locations I prefer the MEIOU approach rather than the IR one. IR was very innovative but it felt a bit gamey turning a province into a city just by clicking a button. I prefer the the MEIOU apprach where a city is something that develops organically and slowly as more urban population is created. At the start London starts with very low urban population but it rapidly grows overtime if you invest in it and you can tell that the province is turning into a city. Once it has 300k urban populstion you know its a city, you dont need to click a button.

Then again Project Ceasar does not seem to have urban populations they are all commoners (i noticed you changed from peasant to commoner, great change!), so for balancing reasons it might be better to go the IR and actually click a button and turn a location into a city with different buildings etc. I cant really opine one way or another until we know more how that and the economy works.
 
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to be fair, especially now with such small locations I prefer the MEIOU approach rather than the IR one. IR was very innovative but it felt a bit gamey turning a province into a city just by clicking a button. I prefer the the MEIOU apprach where a city is something that develops organically and slowly as more urban population is created. At the start London starts with very low urban population but it rapidly grows overtime if you invest in it and you can tell that the province is turning into a city. Once it has 300k urban populstion you know its a city, you dont need to click a button.

Then again Project Ceasar does not seem to have urban populations they are all commoners (i noticed you changed from peasant to commoner, great change!), so for balancing reasons it might be better to go the IR and actually click a button and turn a location into a city with different buildings etc. I cant really opine one way or another until we know more how that and the economy works.
Hmm, what about "city certificates" (Stadtschein in German)? Those were effectively cities bcs the government said so.
 
It has always been my dream that cultures change genetically through interactions over time, for example, that the majority of Turks who migrated to Anatolia had an East Asian phenotype, but over time as they mixed with local populations they turned into West Asians.

Another thing that bothers me is that once a minority pop assimilates into the main culture, they have no genetic traces of their previous culture.
And it creates weird scenarios like a Gujarati turning to a Blonde Anglo-Saxon. There might be exceptions on that but when it's about thousands of people it seems weird.
It would be better to see these pops assimilated culturally rather than genetically (or being mixed).
 
Hmm.. "Burghers" is a little unclear to me, at least as an American. Is there another term that could work? Like "merchants" or "clerks" or something? Also as an American, it's hard to say "Burghers" without imagining them all as "Burgers", which I don't think is the level of seriousness you're going for here XD
 
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Hmm.. "Burghers" is a little unclear to me, at least as an American. Is there another term that could work? Like "merchants" or "clerks" or something? Also as an American, it's hard to say "Burghers" without imagining them all as "Burgers", which I don't think is the level of seriousness you're going for here XD
The issue is "Burghers" are not necessarily merchants or clerks - in a lot of ways they were both.

It's interesting that you take it that way - I'm American too, though when I see "Burghers" I think of the Sri Lankan ethnic group.
 
If this has already been addressed My apologies. its a lot of pages.

Are "Pops" going to be called something besides Pops in game?
And are they going to be represented by a real number? I.e. 538,262 People living in a region will be represented as such, or will it say something like "5 pops"?

Personal problem, but I've always hated the term Pops in stellaris. I guess I just like to see numbers.
 
Well, and seriously, when is this Europa Universalis 5 planned for?

For me, the most important thing is to add the Polish language to the game. All the rest are just add-ons. xD
 
Culture, religion, social class. Well, gender and age are missing.
Only women have children. Only hardened men go to war.
A single man can have 100 children with 100 women and double the population in 9 months, from 101 to 201, while 99 men with a single woman can only have 1 child. Therefore, it is more destructive for a State to die 200 thousand people (half of them women) in a famine than to lose 200 thousand men in a war. It is not the same for a 50-year-old man who only had 30 years to live to die in a battle as for a 10-year-old boy who had 70 years to live to die from starvation as a result of an enemy blockade. The EU3 already had a population, it is not an advance that they restore that mechanics...
A population pyramid would be good.
I think of Grey Eminence:
 
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Culture, religion, social class. Well, gender and age are missing.
Only women have children. Only hardened men go to war.
A single man can have 100 children with 100 women and double the population in 9 months, from 101 to 201, while 99 men with a single woman can only have 1 child. Therefore, it is more destructive for a State to die 200 thousand people (half of them women) in a famine than to lose 200 thousand men in a war. It is not the same for a 50-year-old man who only had 30 years to live to die in a battle as for a 10-year-old boy who had 70 years to live to die from starvation as a result of an enemy blockade. The EU3 already had a population, it is not an advance that they restore that mechanics...
A population pyramid would be good.
I think of Grey Eminence:
Never think of Grey Eminence. Doomed to fail, sadly, due to being over ambitious and now completely eclipsed by EU5
 
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