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Tinto Talks #3 - March 13th, 2024

Welcome to the third week of Tinto Talks, where we talk about our upcoming game, which has the codename “Project Caesar.” Today we are going to delve into something that some may view as controversial. If we go back to one of the pillars we mentioned in the first development diary, “Believable World,” it has 4 sub pillars, where two of them are important to bring forward to today.

Population
The simulation of the population will be what everything is based upon, economy, politics, and warfare.

Simulation, not Board Game.
Mechanics should feel like they fit together, so that you feel you play in a world, and not abstracted away to give the impression of being a board game.

So what does that mean for Project Caesar?
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Every location that can be settled on the maps can have “pops,” or as we often refer to them in Project Caesar; People. Most of the locations have people already from the start of the game. Today we talk about how people are represented in our game, and hint at a few things they will impact in the game.

A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop.
  • Culture, ie, if they are Catalan, Andalusi, Swedish, or something else.
  • Religion, ie, Catholic, Lutheran, Sunni etc. Nothing new.
  • Social Class. In Project Caesar we have 5 different social classes.
    • Nobles - These are the people at the top of the pyramid.
    • Clergy - These represent priests, monks, etc.
    • Burghers - These come from the towns and cities of a country.
    • Peasants - This is the bulk of the people.
    • Slaves - Only present in countries where it is legal.

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There are a few other statistics related to a Pop, where we first have their literacy, which impacts the technological advancement of the country they belong to, and it also impacts the Pop’s understanding of their position in life.

Another one is their current satisfaction, which if it becomes too low, will cause problems for someone. Satisfaction is currently affected by the country’s religious tolerance of their religion, their cultural view of the primary culture, the status of their culture, general instability in the country, <several things we can’t talk about just yet>, and of course specially scripted circumstances.

There are also indirect values and impacts from a Pop on the military, economical and political part of the game as well, which we will go into detail in future development diaries.

Populations can grow or decline over time, assimilate to other cultures, convert to religions, or even migrate.

Most importantly here though, while population is the foundation of the game, it is a system that is in the background, and you will only have indirect control over.

What about performance then?

One of the most important aspects of this has been to design this system and code it in a way that it scales nicely over time in the game, and also has no performance impact. Of course now that we talked about how detailed our map is with currently 27,518 unique locations on the map, and with many of them having pops, you may get worried.

14 years ago, we released a game called Victoria 2, that had 1/10th of the amount of locations, but we also had far more social classes (or pop-types) as we called them there. That game also had a deep political system where each pop cared about multiple issues, and much more that we don’t do here. All in a game that for all practical purposes was basically not multi-threaded in the gamelogic, and was still running fast enough at release.

Now we are building a game based on decades of experience, and so far the performance impact of having pops is not even noticeable.


Next week, we will talk about how governments work a bit, but here is a screenshot that some may like:

1710317019801.png
 
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Will we see culture hybridisation like in CK3? Honestly, one of the best mechanics in CK3!
 
If we're going to have a population mechanic, the scholarly question "How many people were around immediately before and after the black death" is one of the more studied questions of the era. We likely have better population numbers for this period than any time before the 16th century
It’s still really hard to find a consensus. Firstly, there is still debate about it having impacted half or a quarter of the population.

If you compare angus Maddison studies with lots of its revisionists, you can see a lot variation.
Secondly, sources and studies are scarcer for areas outside of europe. Early Ming is estimated 80-120 millions, which is still quite a difference. For XVth century japan, I have seen numbers as low as 8 and as high as 15 millions.

All of these being modeled, usually, based on agricultural output, due to the rarity of contemporary sources, the hypothesis necessarily have a certain degree of variability
 
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Please integrate proper supply chains for warfare and exploration.

Normally in Paradox games we have simple province supply value that can support given number of units - depending on location (climate, etc.) and how far they are from your lands.

In reality this was the main struggle for armies, this was the war we are speaking about.
Gameplaywise AI (and players) will no longer be able to just randomly walk into teritorry and run away from armies deep into attacked country. Note that fortifications, sea routes, preparation for war, attacking important cities/capital will take a huge role in that system - and it is a logical conclusion from that system, not just something artificial like victory points.

I think it's last of the most important things that is still missing in Paradox games to truly be historical simulators.
 
Is it still too early to nitpick the game?

Anyway, just a small feedback. The population for Dai Viet is (very, dramatically) wrong. In this image the population for the entirety of Dai Viet is only 844K.

2935.png


But according to one academic estimates, the population of Dai Viet was already 3 million by 1340, with implications that it was not any less than 1.5 million by the year 1200. I'm not sure what year this map is supposed to represent exactly, but if we're talking, say, mid 14th century, this would have put Dai Viet equal to the population of the Khmer Empire (1.767M), Lavo (630K) and Sukhothai (825K) combined, according to the map Tinto released.

Screenshot 2024-03-22 124306.png


(Source was "Towards an environmental history of the eastern Red River Delta, Vietnam, c.900-1400" by Tana Li btw.)

Anyway, I think this should come as no surprise. The Red River Delta was, iirc (but don't quote me on this), already the single most fertile and populated region in the whole of the general "Southern China + Red River Delta" area throughout the 1st Millennium AD, and maybe even in the entirety of Mainland South East Asia, being able to sustain huge amounts of populations. It was only afterwards that the region experienced a period of depopulation due to outward migration of Han Chinese (due to Dai Co Viet (Dai Viet) breaking off from China/Chinese States and the rise to prominence of Guangdong as a center of trade). But between 900-1259/1300 South East Asia experienced a period of unusually warm and productive climate which was especially beneficial to agriculture for places like the Red River Delta, and population rebounced as a result. Scholars even theorize that the southward expansion of Dai Viet into Champa was largely a result of the strain the high population density of the Delta put on the state of Dai Viet, forcing them to expand outward.
 
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Tana Li, in Nguyen Cochinchina: Southern Vietnam in the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries, estimates the population of Dai Viet in 1400 to be 1,600,000.
That was an older study from 1998. Tana Li herself now uses figures from a newer study by Yumio Sakurai in 2003 (EDIT: Actually it was from a book by Victor Lieberman in 2003, which referenced a graph by Yumio Sakurai), who estimated the population of Dai Viet during the rumored start date of the game to be around 3 million. ("Towards an environmental history of the eastern Red River Delta, Vietnam, c.900-1400", pg. 325)
 
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Whoops, missed that massive Delhi. Vietnam had a rough 1300s thanks to the instability up north and southern invasions, so its population remained mostly unchanged from 1300-1400. The only estimate I could find was 2.4 million in about 1300, along with the 1.5-3 million from 1400 as stated earlier. Source is from Wikipedia, which I checked the sources of. The lowest estimate was a little suspect, but the others were scholarly. Still about the same
I just checked the source of the Wikipedia article and I think it was miscited. The figure from the Victor Lieberman study came from a book by Yumio Sakurai, and the 2.4 million figure was concerning the population of the Red River Delta only, and not of the whole of Dai Viet which it was supposed to. In the same book Sakurai himself estimated the combined population of the Delta and the southern regions during late Tran dynasty to be over 3 million.

EDIT: Here's the page in question:
victor lieberman book screenshot.png
 
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But what are these other Chinese states?
Do you not get my point? Why should Yunnan be vassal? Answer that first.
I think he's trying to say that Yunnan was unique; there weren't any other "Chinese states" to be modelled as vassals.

I don't necessarily think that's true though. Dali / Yunnan was one of several areas organized under the "Tusi" system of hereditary rulers subordinate to Yuan and, later, Ming. "Yunnan, Guizhou, Tibet, Sichuan, Chongqing, the Xiangxi Prefecture of Hunan, and the Enshi Prefecture of Hubei" are mentioned in the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusi
 
Have you considered making livestock into pops/people (or pseudo-people)?

One thing that has rather annoyed me about EU4 is horses for example just magically spread everywhere, and it doesn't matter how many you lose, you can always get more of them.

Whereas, if their population was being tracked as people are, the cost and ability to field cavalry could vary accordingly. And the difficulty of bringing horses to various regions (e.g. Subsaharan Africa) could also be well-represented and reflected.
 
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I think he's trying to say that Yunnan was unique; there weren't any other "Chinese states" to be modelled as vassals.

I don't necessarily think that's true though. Dali / Yunnan was one of several areas organized under the "Tusi" system of hereditary rulers subordinate to Yuan and, later, Ming. "Yunnan, Guizhou, Tibet, Sichuan, Chongqing, the Xiangxi Prefecture of Hunan, and the Enshi Prefecture of Hubei" are mentioned in the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusi
That's true, these should be modelled as well, and their absence is probably my chief complaint with the map right now (which otherwise looks great). But the phrasing "Chinese states" implies that the states you are referring to are Chinese, even though those other states are not.
 
Have you considered making livestock into pops/people (or pseudo-people)?

One thing that has rather annoyed me about EU4 is horses for example just magically spread everywhere, and it doesn't matter how many you lose, you can always get more of them.

Whereas, if their population was being tracked as people are, the cost and ability to field cavalry could vary accordingly. And the difficulty of bringing horses to various regions (e.g. Subsaharan Africa) could also be well-represented and reflected.
Agreed. The horse trade made up a large portion of trade between Arabia and South Asia, due to the unfeasibility of breeding horses in tropical climates and the high death rate of horses due to poorly trained caretakers. Extensive deforestation in the past centuries also created an environment more suitable for horses, as opposed to jungles where elephants are the ideal pack animal. The Vijayanagara were importing thousands of Arabian horses each year at one point.
 
So far great news I want to buy this game for sure, it will change elements in eu4 that I have always wanted to change. Only things that worried me so far is start date I hope 1444 will be available(as one of the option), I love play in hre and 1444 is great starting date in that area.
 
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This has to be Constantinople. Notice the lack of Turkish culture. This suggests quite an early start date, which is very welcome news.

View attachment 1094461
I'm at a loss as to why there would be hundreds of thousands of Bulgarians in Constantinople. When I saw the chart I though it was Thrace, but if it's a location then I would guess it would be Adrianople or something. Then the percentages would make more sense but still not the absolute numbers.
 
I'm at a loss as to why there would be hundreds of thousands of Bulgarians in Constantinople. When I saw the chart I though it was Thrace, but if it's a location then I would guess it would be Adrianople or something. Then the percentages would make more sense but still not the absolute numbers.
Dude underestimates Great Turkish Migration is still continuous. till 1500s.