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Tinto Talks #30 - 25th September 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the time of the week when we give you new information about our entirely super secret upcoming game with the codename Project Caesar.

Today we will talk about how conquest works and how integrating the new locations you have conquered will work. With conquest, we are talking about how you take territory through warfare. For how the actual military campaigns work, I recommend reading Tinto Talks 22, 23 and 24.

Casus Belli
To start a war many feel that you need a casus belli for it, which we will refer to a CB for the rest of this talk. If you lack a CB and start a war you will gain some aggressive expansion and lose some stability. Now while this may not be something you may always want, it is a more lenient way to recover instead of spending precious paper mana like in EU4. However, there are multiple ways to get a CB in this game.

Now, Project Caesar does not have a ‘Fabricate Claim’ button that magically creates a CB on any nation, nor do we have a system of claims, but you have several different options to get a CB.

First of all, there is the super old school way of getting one from an event. This may not cater to everyone's playing style, as it is way too random, but if it was good enough for your parents back in 2001, it is good enough for.. Eh, n/m.

Secondly, we have the option of calling a Parliament and asking them to come up with a valid reason for war against a nearby country. This is powerful, but unless you have a high Crown Power, you may need to negotiate with your Estates for their backing. And Parliaments can not be called every month either, democracy is not even invented yet.

Finally we have the way of creating a CB, when there is a more or less legitimate way to one. First of all, creating a CB on a country requires you to have a spy network in the target country, similar to how claim fabrication works in EU4, but you also need to have some sort of reason to create the type of CB you want. If you let's say play Denmark and want to take back Skåne from Sweden, as you have cores on it, then you can create a ‘Conquer Core’ CB on them, or if they have used Privateers in sea zones where you have a Maritime Presence, you can create another CB on them. There are 50+ different CB you can create depending on circumstances, including everything from ‘Flower Wars’ for countries of Nahuatl religion, ‘Dissolving the Tatar Yoke’ for the tributaries under that International Organization, or ‘Humiliating Rivals’.

war_overview.png

31 allies and subjects for Bohemia, hmmm…

Just remember.. No CB is best CB!


War Goals
Whether you decide that a small border adjustment is needed, or you wish to wage a total war, you need to pick which War Goal you wish to pursue. Different casus belli will allow you to pick different War Goals and the War Goal you pick impacts the cost of conquest as well. A conquer CB will make taking land cheaper, while a ‘humiliation CB will make them more expensive.

A War Goal for a province requires you to occupy that entire province, while a Naval Superiority War Goal will give you a bonus score for blockading the enemy, and defeating their navy if possible.

If your War Goal is fulfilled then the warscore from it ticks up to a maximum of 25, and the total impact from battles in this game can be worth up to 50, while occupations and blockades have no cap and can reach over 100 warscore if possible.

In Project Caesar, therefore, not every war is necessarily a total war like some previous games we have made.

If the War Goal is not fulfilled, it is only possible to get 100% War Score if the winning side controls all of the losing side's locations, and the losing side controls no towns or cities.

This means that if you have your wargoal taken care of, winning some important battles and occupying some land, you will be able to force a reasonable peace on someone.

war_goal.png

Give me liberty or ehh.. annexation?


Integration
So what do you do then, when you have signed a peace and got some new land to your country?

First of all, it is not as simple as a location being a core or not, as Project Caesar introduces a new system of integration for locations. There are four states of integration in this game, first of all the conquered locations, which have a high separatism, lower control, and make pops unlikely to convert or assimilate. This is the state of any location you conquer that is not a core of yours. When a location becomes integrated, separatism drops to one fifth of the previous levels, and control has a higher maximum. When a location becomes a core, the minimum control is higher, and your primary and accepted cultures grow more, while minorities become stagnant. We also have the colonized status, which is after you have colonized a location, and it is not yet a core. A colonized location has lower maximum control.

What is separatism then? Well, it is the reduction of satisfaction for pops that are not of the primary culture. This is very likely to make the locations very unproductive for quite some time.

A location becomes a core automatically if it's integrated OR colonial, and at least 50% of the pops are of the primary or accepted cultures of that country.

core.png

It is beneficial to get your locations to become your cores…

How do you integrate a location then? Well, this is the challenge in Project Caesar, as you do not have any magic paper mana to spend on it, but instead you need to use one of the members of your cabinet to integrate it. At the start of the game, a cabinet member can integrate an entire province at once, but in the Age of Absolutism you have an advance that will let you integrate an entire area at once.

This integration is not instant, but depends on many factors, like the status and the population living in the locations affected, but on average integrating a province may take between 25 and 50 years.

integration.png

And what are all of these factors then?


Stay tuned, as in next week's Tinto Talks, we will talk about how peace treaties themselves work, and which ones we have.
 
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An easy counterexample is how the proportion of blacks in many states in the southern US actually increased during the early 18th century, even though they were definitely not an accepted culture.
Culture is not ethnicity. What the halting of minority cultures growing represents in a core (which requires 50% of pops to be primary or accepted cultures anyway) isn't that the ethnically Spanish people in British Galicia die off or stop breeding, but that those still ethnically Spanish people now increasingly perceive themselves (and are perceived by others) to be English, with larger parts of new generations sipping tea, full-throatedly singing God Save the King, and end answer every question with "quite" while their grandparents shake their heads in shame.
 
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Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the time of the week when we give you new information about our entirely super secret upcoming game with the codename Project Caesar.

Today we will talk about how conquest works and how integrating the new locations you have conquered will work. With conquest, we are talking about how you take territory through warfare. For how the actual military campaigns work, I recommend reading Tinto Talks 22, 23 and 24.

Casus Belli
To start a war many feel that you need a casus belli for it, which we will refer to a CB for the rest of this talk. If you lack a CB and start a war you will gain some aggressive expansion and lose some stability. Now while this may not be something you may always want, it is a more lenient way to recover instead of spending precious paper mana like in EU4. However, there are multiple ways to get a CB in this game.

Now, Project Caesar does not have a ‘Fabricate Claim’ button that magically creates a CB on any nation, nor do we have a system of claims, but you have several different options to get a CB.

First of all, there is the super old school way of getting one from an event. This may not cater to everyone's playing style, as it is way too random, but if it was good enough for your parents back in 2001, it is good enough for.. Eh, n/m.

Secondly, we have the option of calling a Parliament and asking them to come up with a valid reason for war against a nearby country. This is powerful, but unless you have a high Crown Power, you may need to negotiate with your Estates for their backing. And Parliaments can not be called every month either, democracy is not even invented yet.

Finally we have the way of creating a CB, when there is a more or less legitimate way to one. First of all, creating a CB on a country requires you to have a spy network in the target country, similar to how claim fabrication works in EU4, but you also need to have some sort of reason to create the type of CB you want. If you let's say play Denmark and want to take back Skåne from Sweden, as you have cores on it, then you can create a ‘Conquer Core’ CB on them, or if they have used Privateers in sea zones where you have a Maritime Presence, you can create another CB on them. There are 50+ different CB you can create depending on circumstances, including everything from ‘Flower Wars’ for countries of Nahuatl religion, ‘Dissolving the Tatar Yoke’ for the tributaries under that International Organization, or ‘Humiliating Rivals’.

View attachment 1192808
31 allies and subjects for Bohemia, hmmm…

Just remember.. No CB is best CB!


War Goals
Whether you decide that a small border adjustment is needed, or you wish to wage a total war, you need to pick which War Goal you wish to pursue. Different casus belli will allow you to pick different War Goals and the War Goal you pick impacts the cost of conquest as well. A conquer CB will make taking land cheaper, while a ‘humiliation CB will make them more expensive.

A War Goal for a province requires you to occupy that entire province, while a Naval Superiority War Goal will give you a bonus score for blockading the enemy, and defeating their navy if possible.

If your War Goal is fulfilled then the warscore from it ticks up to a maximum of 25, and the total impact from battles in this game can be worth up to 50, while occupations and blockades have no cap and can reach over 100 warscore if possible.

In Project Caesar, therefore, not every war is necessarily a total war like some previous games we have made.

If the War Goal is not fulfilled, it is only possible to get 100% War Score if the winning side controls all of the losing side's locations, and the losing side controls no towns or cities.

This means that if you have your wargoal taken care of, winning some important battles and occupying some land, you will be able to force a reasonable peace on someone.

View attachment 1192807
Give me liberty or ehh.. annexation?


Integration
So what do you do then, when you have signed a peace and got some new land to your country?

First of all, it is not as simple as a location being a core or not, as Project Caesar introduces a new system of integration for locations. There are four states of integration in this game, first of all the conquered locations, which have a high separatism, lower control, and make pops unlikely to convert or assimilate. This is the state of any location you conquer that is not a core of yours. When a location becomes integrated, separatism drops to one fifth of the previous levels, and control has a higher maximum. When a location becomes a core, the minimum control is higher, and your primary and accepted cultures grow more, while minorities become stagnant. We also have the colonized status, which is after you have colonized a location, and it is not yet a core. A colonized location has lower maximum control.

What is separatism then? Well, it is the reduction of satisfaction for pops that are not of the primary culture. This is very likely to make the locations very unproductive for quite some time.

A location becomes a core automatically if it's integrated OR colonial, and at least 50% of the pops are of the primary or accepted cultures of that country.

View attachment 1192806
It is beneficial to get your locations to become your cores…

How do you integrate a location then? Well, this is the challenge in Project Caesar, as you do not have any magic paper mana to spend on it, but instead you need to use one of the members of your cabinet to integrate it. At the start of the game, a cabinet member can integrate an entire province at once, but in the Age of Absolutism you have an advance that will let you integrate an entire area at once.

This integration is not instant, but depends on many factors, like the status and the population living in the locations affected, but on average integrating a province may take between 25 and 50 years.

View attachment 1192805
And what are all of these factors then?


Stay tuned, as in next week's Tinto Talks, we will talk about how peace treaties themselves work, and which ones we have.
Can there please mechanics for give AND take in the peace deal system? Peace deals can just as easily include concessions as gains, trading land each country occupies as the war ends, taking areas but "buying for them" at least in order for the losing nation to save face, etc
 
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I hope that one day we will get a PDX game that has a customisable administrative division mechanic, just like IRL. You can group provinces (locations) together optimally for benefits and easier administration, based on geography, cultures, your size, political reasons etc., and maybe appoint dukes, counts, mayors, governors or whatever (or the people get them elected) to govern land. And, most importantly, give a unique naming to each administrative division. This would expand the possibilities to roleplay by such a degree! I really don't want to be bound by the province grouping to administer my land, since it's usually a something that is changed IRL, again.
 
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Is it possible to have a CB or go to war only to take a couple of locations here and there and not an entire province, or are provinces the smallest territorial changes that can be made during a peace conference? If I only want one city that's on my border that I'd really rather see under my flag than theirs I'd rather not be required to take the entire province that city belongs to.
 
Is it possible to have a CB or go to war only to take a couple of locations here and there and not an entire province, or are provinces the smallest territorial changes that can be made during a peace conference? If I only want one city that's on my border that I'd really rather see under my flag than theirs I'd rather not be required to take the entire province that city belongs to.
It's been said elsewhere, but you can take individual locations in a peace deal.
 
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I hope that one day we will get a PDX game that has a customisable administrative division mechanic, just like IRL. You can group provinces (locations) together optimally for benefits and easier administration, based on geography, cultures, your size, political reasons etc., and maybe appoint dukes, counts, mayors, governors or whatever (or the people get them elected) to govern land. And, most importantly, give a unique naming to each administrative division. This would expand the possibilities to roleplay by such a degree! I really don't want to be bound by the province grouping to administer my land, since it's usually a something that is changed IRL, again.
I've mentioned it a couple of times, but I genuinely think it should be possible to mod exactly this in, because I 100% agree.
 
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What happens if we conquer more locataions in a province with ongoing integration?
Presumably integration is just a value per location that ticks up from 0 to 100, and once it hits 100 it's integrated. So, if you conquer more locations in a province, they will start at 0 integration and tick up at the same rate as every other location in a province that you have a minister set to integrate. You'll just have to leave that minister there after all those other locations are integrated to keep integrating those newly-acquired locations.

Also to emphasize this point: populations per location aren't equal, and integration is based on factors such as population. It fundamentally can't be evenly distributed.
 
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Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the time of the week when we give you new information about our entirely super secret upcoming game with the codename Project Caesar.

Today we will talk about how conquest works and how integrating the new locations you have conquered will work. With conquest, we are talking about how you take territory through warfare. For how the actual military campaigns work, I recommend reading Tinto Talks 22, 23 and 24.

Casus Belli
To start a war many feel that you need a casus belli for it, which we will refer to a CB for the rest of this talk. If you lack a CB and start a war you will gain some aggressive expansion and lose some stability. Now while this may not be something you may always want, it is a more lenient way to recover instead of spending precious paper mana like in EU4. However, there are multiple ways to get a CB in this game.

Now, Project Caesar does not have a ‘Fabricate Claim’ button that magically creates a CB on any nation, nor do we have a system of claims, but you have several different options to get a CB.

First of all, there is the super old school way of getting one from an event. This may not cater to everyone's playing style, as it is way too random, but if it was good enough for your parents back in 2001, it is good enough for.. Eh, n/m.

Secondly, we have the option of calling a Parliament and asking them to come up with a valid reason for war against a nearby country. This is powerful, but unless you have a high Crown Power, you may need to negotiate with your Estates for their backing. And Parliaments can not be called every month either, democracy is not even invented yet.

Finally we have the way of creating a CB, when there is a more or less legitimate way to one. First of all, creating a CB on a country requires you to have a spy network in the target country, similar to how claim fabrication works in EU4, but you also need to have some sort of reason to create the type of CB you want. If you let's say play Denmark and want to take back Skåne from Sweden, as you have cores on it, then you can create a ‘Conquer Core’ CB on them, or if they have used Privateers in sea zones where you have a Maritime Presence, you can create another CB on them. There are 50+ different CB you can create depending on circumstances, including everything from ‘Flower Wars’ for countries of Nahuatl religion, ‘Dissolving the Tatar Yoke’ for the tributaries under that International Organization, or ‘Humiliating Rivals’.

View attachment 1192808
31 allies and subjects for Bohemia, hmmm…

Just remember.. No CB is best CB!


War Goals
Whether you decide that a small border adjustment is needed, or you wish to wage a total war, you need to pick which War Goal you wish to pursue. Different casus belli will allow you to pick different War Goals and the War Goal you pick impacts the cost of conquest as well. A conquer CB will make taking land cheaper, while a ‘humiliation CB will make them more expensive.

A War Goal for a province requires you to occupy that entire province, while a Naval Superiority War Goal will give you a bonus score for blockading the enemy, and defeating their navy if possible.

If your War Goal is fulfilled then the warscore from it ticks up to a maximum of 25, and the total impact from battles in this game can be worth up to 50, while occupations and blockades have no cap and can reach over 100 warscore if possible.

In Project Caesar, therefore, not every war is necessarily a total war like some previous games we have made.

If the War Goal is not fulfilled, it is only possible to get 100% War Score if the winning side controls all of the losing side's locations, and the losing side controls no towns or cities.

This means that if you have your wargoal taken care of, winning some important battles and occupying some land, you will be able to force a reasonable peace on someone.

View attachment 1192807
Give me liberty or ehh.. annexation?


Integration
So what do you do then, when you have signed a peace and got some new land to your country?

First of all, it is not as simple as a location being a core or not, as Project Caesar introduces a new system of integration for locations. There are four states of integration in this game, first of all the conquered locations, which have a high separatism, lower control, and make pops unlikely to convert or assimilate. This is the state of any location you conquer that is not a core of yours. When a location becomes integrated, separatism drops to one fifth of the previous levels, and control has a higher maximum. When a location becomes a core, the minimum control is higher, and your primary and accepted cultures grow more, while minorities become stagnant. We also have the colonized status, which is after you have colonized a location, and it is not yet a core. A colonized location has lower maximum control.

What is separatism then? Well, it is the reduction of satisfaction for pops that are not of the primary culture. This is very likely to make the locations very unproductive for quite some time.

A location becomes a core automatically if it's integrated OR colonial, and at least 50% of the pops are of the primary or accepted cultures of that country.

View attachment 1192806
It is beneficial to get your locations to become your cores…

How do you integrate a location then? Well, this is the challenge in Project Caesar, as you do not have any magic paper mana to spend on it, but instead you need to use one of the members of your cabinet to integrate it. At the start of the game, a cabinet member can integrate an entire province at once, but in the Age of Absolutism you have an advance that will let you integrate an entire area at once.

This integration is not instant, but depends on many factors, like the status and the population living in the locations affected, but on average integrating a province may take between 25 and 50 years.

View attachment 1192805
And what are all of these factors then?


Stay tuned, as in next week's Tinto Talks, we will talk about how peace treaties themselves work, and which ones we have.
Love it, this is everything I was hoping for in eu5. This is going on my must buy list I'm super excited. Keep up the amazing work!
 
Culture is not ethnicity. What the halting of minority cultures growing represents in a core (which requires 50% of pops to be primary or accepted cultures anyway) isn't that the ethnically Spanish people in British Galicia die off or stop breeding, but that those still ethnically Spanish people now increasingly perceive themselves (and are perceived by others) to be English, with larger parts of new generations sipping tea, full-throatedly singing God Save the King, and end answer every question with "quite" while their grandparents shake their heads in shame.
I don't think it's entirely clear from the TT whether or not "stop growing" means the ratio of minority pops stops growing (a mechanical hedge to avoid a place from dipping back below 50% primary culture), or whether the literal population count of minority pops stops growing.

Regardless, it seems to just be a modifier on cores, so it's easily dealt away with. Hell, even the entire mechanism of coring (50% primary culture) seems to just be scripted, so I can do all that stuff I talked about with regards to a "right to rule" sorta thing.

I bring that up because the idea of coring requiring majority primary culture seems a bit... 19th century? We're not playing nation-states; we're several hundred years too early for that.
 
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Considering how many people do not seem to like the necessity of cabinet members to do integration, I suggest that the integration can happen passivelly, with cabinet members speeding things up. Even if, without cabinet members, it takes 100 years or something to integrate., while having cabinet members would cut it to at least half, to the 50 years you are currently showing as integration time. Or maybe, make the integration process be faster with centralization and slower with descentralization as your nations values. So it could integrate passively but reaaaly slowly in the beginning but towards the late game, with high centralization, you can integrate faster.
 
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Hello, I want to ask this. I have been following these Tinto talks since they came out. What will you do about the optimization problem? Because your promises are very big and even these promises can lead to deep thoughts about optimization.
 
all of this talk about land integration made me think of something :

when will talk about land differentiation. And most importantly is this integration with Riemann or Lebesgue sum?
 
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I bring that up because the idea of coring requiring majority primary culture seems a bit... 19th century? We're not playing nation-states; we're several hundred years too early for that.
You can also core with over 50% accepted culture, meaning you can very well have multicultural states where areas of non-primary culture are still considered core territory.
 
I personaly will use a mod to decrease the integration time but I would prefer if there were an in-game option to boost/nerf integration time so that the player can adjust this feature before starting the game.
Can you give us that mr. Johan so that everyone can enjoy the game how they like? More options are always better and perhaps it will help ease players into the intended balance for the game! :)
 
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A location becomes a core automatically if it's integrated OR colonial, and at least 50% of the pops are of the primary or accepted cultures of that country.
1) If in a core location the pop with integrated or accepet culture drops under 50%, that can turn back to the "integrated" status?

2) Since a lot of locations will never become cores unless we accept their cultures (or we wait hundreds of years to reach the 50% pops), accepting the culture seems really important. How accepting cultures works? (was already mentioned it in previous DD?)
 
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You can also core with over 50% accepted culture, meaning you can very well have multicultural states where areas of non-primary culture are still considered core territory.
Sure, but the example I listed off (France, namely) isn't a country that "accepted" the various other cultures of France. France was not bicultural, yet it should gain cores on areas that, under the present cultural map representation, would not be predominantly French at the time.