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Tinto Talks #30 - 25th September 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the time of the week when we give you new information about our entirely super secret upcoming game with the codename Project Caesar.

Today we will talk about how conquest works and how integrating the new locations you have conquered will work. With conquest, we are talking about how you take territory through warfare. For how the actual military campaigns work, I recommend reading Tinto Talks 22, 23 and 24.

Casus Belli
To start a war many feel that you need a casus belli for it, which we will refer to a CB for the rest of this talk. If you lack a CB and start a war you will gain some aggressive expansion and lose some stability. Now while this may not be something you may always want, it is a more lenient way to recover instead of spending precious paper mana like in EU4. However, there are multiple ways to get a CB in this game.

Now, Project Caesar does not have a ‘Fabricate Claim’ button that magically creates a CB on any nation, nor do we have a system of claims, but you have several different options to get a CB.

First of all, there is the super old school way of getting one from an event. This may not cater to everyone's playing style, as it is way too random, but if it was good enough for your parents back in 2001, it is good enough for.. Eh, n/m.

Secondly, we have the option of calling a Parliament and asking them to come up with a valid reason for war against a nearby country. This is powerful, but unless you have a high Crown Power, you may need to negotiate with your Estates for their backing. And Parliaments can not be called every month either, democracy is not even invented yet.

Finally we have the way of creating a CB, when there is a more or less legitimate way to one. First of all, creating a CB on a country requires you to have a spy network in the target country, similar to how claim fabrication works in EU4, but you also need to have some sort of reason to create the type of CB you want. If you let's say play Denmark and want to take back Skåne from Sweden, as you have cores on it, then you can create a ‘Conquer Core’ CB on them, or if they have used Privateers in sea zones where you have a Maritime Presence, you can create another CB on them. There are 50+ different CB you can create depending on circumstances, including everything from ‘Flower Wars’ for countries of Nahuatl religion, ‘Dissolving the Tatar Yoke’ for the tributaries under that International Organization, or ‘Humiliating Rivals’.

war_overview.png

31 allies and subjects for Bohemia, hmmm…

Just remember.. No CB is best CB!


War Goals
Whether you decide that a small border adjustment is needed, or you wish to wage a total war, you need to pick which War Goal you wish to pursue. Different casus belli will allow you to pick different War Goals and the War Goal you pick impacts the cost of conquest as well. A conquer CB will make taking land cheaper, while a ‘humiliation CB will make them more expensive.

A War Goal for a province requires you to occupy that entire province, while a Naval Superiority War Goal will give you a bonus score for blockading the enemy, and defeating their navy if possible.

If your War Goal is fulfilled then the warscore from it ticks up to a maximum of 25, and the total impact from battles in this game can be worth up to 50, while occupations and blockades have no cap and can reach over 100 warscore if possible.

In Project Caesar, therefore, not every war is necessarily a total war like some previous games we have made.

If the War Goal is not fulfilled, it is only possible to get 100% War Score if the winning side controls all of the losing side's locations, and the losing side controls no towns or cities.

This means that if you have your wargoal taken care of, winning some important battles and occupying some land, you will be able to force a reasonable peace on someone.

war_goal.png

Give me liberty or ehh.. annexation?


Integration
So what do you do then, when you have signed a peace and got some new land to your country?

First of all, it is not as simple as a location being a core or not, as Project Caesar introduces a new system of integration for locations. There are four states of integration in this game, first of all the conquered locations, which have a high separatism, lower control, and make pops unlikely to convert or assimilate. This is the state of any location you conquer that is not a core of yours. When a location becomes integrated, separatism drops to one fifth of the previous levels, and control has a higher maximum. When a location becomes a core, the minimum control is higher, and your primary and accepted cultures grow more, while minorities become stagnant. We also have the colonized status, which is after you have colonized a location, and it is not yet a core. A colonized location has lower maximum control.

What is separatism then? Well, it is the reduction of satisfaction for pops that are not of the primary culture. This is very likely to make the locations very unproductive for quite some time.

A location becomes a core automatically if it's integrated OR colonial, and at least 50% of the pops are of the primary or accepted cultures of that country.

core.png

It is beneficial to get your locations to become your cores…

How do you integrate a location then? Well, this is the challenge in Project Caesar, as you do not have any magic paper mana to spend on it, but instead you need to use one of the members of your cabinet to integrate it. At the start of the game, a cabinet member can integrate an entire province at once, but in the Age of Absolutism you have an advance that will let you integrate an entire area at once.

This integration is not instant, but depends on many factors, like the status and the population living in the locations affected, but on average integrating a province may take between 25 and 50 years.

integration.png

And what are all of these factors then?


Stay tuned, as in next week's Tinto Talks, we will talk about how peace treaties themselves work, and which ones we have.
 
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  1. johan said that you can have the cabinet member do something else and then get back to integrating so it wont be locked, and even if the cabinet member never goes back to integrating the province will still integrate by itself, albiet at a slower rate
Can you point to where this is stated?

The best I could find was...

Cabinet Member/Action is needed to integrate.
Impossible without.

Cabinet Action continues if member dies although it is slower until the cabinet member is replaced.
If cabinet member dies, all that happens is that the progress is a bit slower until you assign a new member.. that is true for ALL cabinet actions.

And it can be paused
yes, it can be "paused"

So to recap
  1. Cabinet Action (slot) needed
  2. Runs slower is the cabinet member vacates, but slot still taken
  3. Can be paused (releasing slot)

Edit: I also hope that since it can be paused that the penalties from not being integrated are prorated by the 'amount' of integration.
 
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Given how controversial this has all been, it would be a fair compromise if the devs made the integration time something for the player to choose. That way, it will satisfy both people who want a more realistic gameplay and those who want to blob all they want.

I 100% agree with this. Perhaps changing the integration time disables the achievements in the game, but it should definitely be something the player can chose. Because 50 years sounds WAY TOO MUCH. Specially if you can only integrate 1 province at a time, and have to spend a cabinet member to do it.
 
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When we integrate a vassal, does the provinces we get have the "integrated status" without needing a cabinet member for each provinces ?
If not, France wouldn't have integrated it's territory by the end of the game ?
 
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Can you point to where this is stated?

The best I could find was...

Cabinet Member/Action is needed to integrate.


Cabinet Action continues if member dies although it is slower until the cabinet member is replaced.


And it can be paused


So to recap
  1. Cabinet Action (slot) needed
  2. Runs slower is the cabinet member vacates, but slot still taken
  3. Can be paused (releasing slot)

Edit: I also hope that since it can be paused that the penalties from not being integrated are prorated by the 'amount' of integration.
it is stated in the quotes you put, he said it can be paused if the cabinet member is taken off, which obviously means he can be put back on it. because it takes 50 years and you only have a limited number of cabinet members so obviously the game will allow you to put him back since you have so many other actions to perform with cabinet members. and it will continue to integrate by itself without the cabinet member. it has to be this way, it wouldnt make sense if you cant put him back on.
 
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it is stated in the quotes you put, he said it can be paused if the cabinet member is taken off, which obviously means he can be put back on it. because it takes 50 years and you only have a limited number of cabinet members so obviously the game will allow you to put him back since you have so many other actions to perform with cabinet members. and it will continue to integrate by itself without the cabinet member. it has to be this way, it wouldnt make sense if you cant put him back on.
It will not continue to integrate by itself. If the cabinet member dies, their action continues but less efficient until replaced. However, you are still spending one cabinet member action on integrating, whether or not the actual cabinet member is alive or dead.
 
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It will not continue to integrate by itself. If the cabinet member dies, their action continues but less efficient until replaced. However, you are still spending one cabinet member action on integrating, whether or not the actual cabinet member is alive or dead.
you said it will not continute to integrate by itself then you say it will continue but less efficient, these two statements are contradictory unless your trying to say something different, as for using the cabinet member action wheather hes alive or dead and therefore locking that cabinet member, since we'll only have one cabinet member at the start ( johan replied "why" when someone said surely we'll need two cabinet members at the start) we have to be able to take him off the integration to do other tasks and then put him back. since there are so many other tasks he'll need to do. my guess is that all tasks such as integrating or suppressing rebels can happen by themselves but cabinet members speed them up.
 
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you said it will not continute to integrate by itself then you say it will continue but less efficient, these two statements are contradictory unless your trying to say something different, as for using the cabinet member action wheather hes alive or dead and therefore locking that cabinet member, since we'll only have one cabinet member at the start ( johan replied "why" when someone said surely we'll need two cabinet members at the start) we have to be able to take him off the integration to do other tasks and then put him back. since there are so many other tasks he'll need to do. my guess is that all tasks such as integrating or suppressing rebels can happen by themselves but cabinet members speed them up.
To explain more clearly, you start with two cabinet member slots. It is those slots that you are assigning things like integration, etc.; those slots have a character added who then applies their stats to boost the action the slot is taking. If a cabinet member dies, the slot is still performing the action.

Think back to CK2's councils, where you can send your steward off to up your income somewhere. Except unlike CK2, when the steward dies, the action still exists (albeit much less efficiently); assign a character and the action goes back to how it was except using the new character's stats. That is what this is. This is what Johan was describing. This is the entire foundation for how Johan balanced this mechanic. It would make no sense, with everything Johan has said, for it to work any other way.
 
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To explain more clearly, you start with two cabinet member slots. It is those slots that you are assigning things like integration, etc.; those slots have a character added who then applies their stats to boost the action the slot is taking. If a cabinet member dies, the slot is still performing the action.

Think back to CK2's councils, where you can send your steward off to up your income somewhere. Except unlike CK2, when the steward dies, the action still exists (albeit much less efficiently); assign a character and the action goes back to how it was except using the new character's stats. That is what this is. This is what Johan was describing. This is the entire foundation for how Johan balanced this mechanic. It would make no sense, with everything Johan has said, for it to work any other way.
yes, thats what i was describing.
 
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View attachment 1192951

I don't get it... so... all non-primary and not accepted pops suddenly will... stop having sex and won't multiply?

- What's up, my dear cabinet member? How's integration of France going?
- Oh, sire, they won't mate. They just walk around, eating, and not mating.
I guess one explanation I can think of is that after 'integration' phase hits, all the new borns are considered part of your culture as they are 'integrated' to your nation now.
 
you said it will not continute to integrate by itself then you say it will continue but less efficient, these two statements are contradictory unless your trying to say something different, as for using the cabinet member action wheather hes alive or dead and therefore locking that cabinet member, since we'll only have one cabinet member at the start ( johan replied "why" when someone said surely we'll need two cabinet members at the start) we have to be able to take him off the integration to do other tasks and then put him back. since there are so many other tasks he'll need to do. my guess is that all tasks such as integrating or suppressing rebels can happen by themselves but cabinet members speed them up.
What has been stated so far is as such
  1. You can apply integration action with Cabinet member
  2. You can remove the action and the cabinet member it will pause (i.e. you don't have to start back at zero)
  3. If you remove just the Cabinet member (i.e. they die) the action will continue. The implication here is that the cabinet members action slot is still taken.
What I am reading from what you are stating is that in case (2) it will still continue albeit slowly and there has been nothing to indicate this passive increase in integration 'points'. All the integration 'points' are tied to the cabinet member action.

Unless there is something else that was stated to the contrary, thus why I asked.
 
What has been stated so far is as such
  1. You can apply integration action with Cabinet member
  2. You can remove the action and the cabinet member it will pause (i.e. you don't have to start back at zero)
  3. If you remove just the Cabinet member (i.e. they die) the action will continue. The implication here is that the cabinet members action slot is still taken.
What I am reading from what you are stating is that in case (2) it will still continue albeit slowly and there has been nothing to indicate this passive increase in integration 'points'. All the integration 'points' are tied to the cabinet member action.

Unless there is something else that was stated to the contrary, thus why I asked.
something was stated to indicate this passive increase, its this quote from johan "
If cabinet member dies, all that happens is that the progress is a bit slower until you assign a new member.. that is true for ALL cabinet actions.
" first, the one who asked the question was asking not just when the cabinet member dies but when he is taken off to another task, will the proccess continue? when he is taken off to do another task that cabinet member task slot is taken with him and while johan did say that if a cabinet member dies the progress still continues but slower, i think he would've pointed out that the progress will not continue if the cabinet member slot is busy with something else.
second resason is considering you have so many actions to do and you'll probobly be taking at the minimum 20 locations in the first 50 years. and you only have one cabinet member at the start. the integrations will have to continue by themselves, it would be too brutal to need the cabinet member slot to take 50 years to integrate every location you've taken. that doesnt make sense to me if they did it this way.
 
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something was stated to indicate this passive increase, its this quote from johan "
If cabinet member dies, all that happens is that the progress is a bit slower until you assign a new member.. that is true for ALL cabinet actions.
" first, the one who asked the question was asking not just when the cabinet member dies but when he is taken off to another task, will the proccess continue? when he is taken off to do another task that cabinet member task slot is taken with him and while johan did say that if a cabinet member dies the progress still continues but slower, i think he would've pointed out that the progress will not continue if the cabinet member slot is busy with something else.
second resason is considering you have so many actions to do and you'll probobly be taking at the minimum 20 locations in the first 50 years. and you only have one cabinet member at the start. the integrations will have to continue by themselves, it would be too brutal to need the cabinet member slot to take 50 years to integrate every location you've taken. that doesnt make sense to me if they did it this way.
But the first quote is where it was stated that it is impossible without.

they required and integration without cabinet is impossible?
Impossible without.

And here is the full message to which he was responding.
Regarding Integration, will non accepted religion and non accepted culture provinces resist integration and try and remain as ungovernable as possible?
It would be a cool mechanic to have where populations with different religions and cultures would try and refuse to be part of your country giving us a greater challenge to expansion.

And also, Do Cabinet members accelerate integration or are they required and integration without cabinet is impossible?
So with the 'impossible without' one would infer the part before the 'or' to be false.

This is why plenty are concerned about integration via cabinet members and the limited (2) number of cabinet members with which one starts.
 
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But the first quote is where it was stated that it is impossible without.



And here is the full message to which he was responding.

So with the 'impossible without' one would infer the part before the 'or' to be false.

This is why plenty are concerned about integration via cabinet members and the limited (2) number of cabinet members with which one starts.
you may need the cabinet member to start integrating but it has to continue by itself, imagine you start as milan, to core all of northern italy you would probobly need the entire span of the game, that is insane. unless the location would give you more tax and manpower without being cored unlike EU4 or that you can a form a new nation which would automatically core all that you have conquered. otherwise i cant imagine why they make it so that you need a cabinet member slot to integrate every single location.
 
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Just getting starting following dev diaries on this game. but "integrating a province may take between 25 and 50 years". Is this going to be a mostly playing tall game? I hope this philosophy attracts new players who also like to paint maps.
 
I think all of this should be much more like eu4 than eu3 because that's what made eu4 such a big success and as a more casual than hardcore player I would like to have fun.
 
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Because 2 is definitely not enough if Integration takes Decades and it’s impossible to Integrate without Cabinet members.
If we play as a conquering nation then all our cabinet members would have to be put on Integration for the entirety of the game and even that may not be enough time.

That just seems like a bad idea to me, maybe if Cabinet members simply initiated the Integration process and then it would automatically tick up then we could actually use our Cabinet for other stuff, but as it is right now it seems Impossible to integrate large amounts of land with so little cabinet members and such a massive amount of time needed
 
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