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Tinto Talks #31 - 2nd of October 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets of our upcoming game, with the codename Project Caesar.

Last week we talked about wars and wargoals, and today we are going to talk about how wars will end, as we discuss the peace system. If you have played other GSG games for Paradox, some of this may not be news to you though.


Peace Offers
To end a war you need to negotiate a peace with either the leader on the other side, or if you are the leader on your side, you can negotiate a separate peace with a single independent country on the other side.

One thing that is important to notice, is that if you declare war for a war goal to conquer a certain province, then you can not take any other land, UNLESS you take the wargoal.

To be able to take land, you also need to have control over the province capital.

A Peace Offer, will consist of a set of treaties that can have a total value of up to 100 Peace Cost. Of course the other side would have to agree, and they are very likely not to accept anything where the peace cost is higher than the current warscore.

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Peace in our time?

Peace Treaties
A peace treaty can be the transfer of a location, province or area. It can also be to force another country to stop sending privateers, or transferring gold to you, or dismantling fortification in a location, humiliating them or any other of the dozens upon dozens of possible peace treaties of Project Caesar.

The cost of each treaty depends on many factors, whether it’s part of the wargoal or not, the population, the type of the treaty and so on.

peace_cost.png

Numbers are still being tweaked..


Aggressive Expansion
Aggressive Expansion is one of the drawbacks of strengthening your own country ahead of others. Taking territory is one of the easiest ways to increase it. While taking land impacts your own country a fair bit, it also impacts the opinions of other countries near the source of the aggressive expansion a fair bit. If you get your AE high enough, countries with a low enough opinion of you may join a coalition against you. A Coalition is an international organization oriented around severely reducing the power of a single country.

ae_impact.png

We can probably live with this AE though?


War Enthusiasm
When it comes to how willing a nation is to fight, much comes down to their War Enthusiasm. If this is high then the AI is unlikely to accept a peace that is not favorable to them. This is determined by the state of the country, with war exhaustion, control of capital and military strength are big factors. For the leader of a side in the war the overall military balance is a huge factor as well.


enthusiasm.png

Bohemia really wants to continue this war…


War Participation
Most of the time you bring allies to help you out in a war, but they expect to be rewarded for the part they pull. The War Participation is how much a country has contributed to the progress of the war. This is primarily done through battles, blockades and sieges.

You may sometimes have to convince your allies to join an offensive war that you are starting, and thus you can promise them part of the spoils of the war. If the part that they gain from signing a peace is less than their participation they will get upset.



Stay tuned, as next week, we’ll talk about the conflicts in the world that do not involve declarations of war, and negotiations of peace.
 
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Ispil said:
Looks... about as frustrating as the EU4 system, frankly. Still a fixed 100-point cap, still the same AE effect as it always was with no level of nuance.

I'm disappointed.
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It was the best system we have made for a GSG.
 
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Jon Snow21 said:
If I want to conquer a province and won other provinces as well, I will get only that of war goal or even the extra "portion"?
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yes, you can take the wargoal and other stuff.
 
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bokorthedust said:
Also, how come control influences twice the warscore cost of a location? Lack of control decreases it, control increases it, but they are the two sides of the same equation.
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fun bug.

one was "increase and decrease" ... should only be at one place in formula.
 
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I made this point already in last TT, but Aggressive Expansion (AE) feels extremely outdated compared to other much more innovative approaches of PC. If Bohemia takes Berlin from Brandenburg, why would Brandenburg ever forget that the Bohemians did that to them? Did Maria Theresia ever forget that Frederick took Silesia from her (well no, she didn't, and she did everything in her power to make friends with her arch enemy, the French, in order to take Silesia back).

Again, to quote from this post long time ago, I feel that "threat" is a vastly better mechanic than AE.
Instead, let's have a "threat" perception of each state by every other state. That "threat" automatically has a baseline value determined by cultural and religious similarity, military and economic power, and proximity. This way, small, Christian states on the border of the Ottoman Empire will always perceive the Ottomans as an enormous threat, and will constantly be attempting to build coalitions and alliances to counter the Ottomans, which Austria, Poland, or Hungary might take the lead of.
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A small country at the border to the Ottomans should not just join a coalition once the Ottomans gobbled up every other state around them, and then come to the conclusion "well, I had enough now," they should always be willing to join any coalition vs. the Ottomans. Once the Prussians take Silesia, which is the most prosperous province of the Austrians, the way how Prussia is perceived by others in terms of their military capacities should overall change; the potential threat that Prussians now pose to others does not just magically tick down over time, they are now considered as one of the most powerful countries in Europe. If someone becomes the economic hegemon, they too should be perceived as someone who could be a threat in many terms as they could just hire a bunch of mercenaries against others.

Honest feedback here, AE is a bad mechanic for many reasons:
  1. It is "gamey" because it is just a number that ticks down, which implies other actors just "forget" about the incidents that triggered it.
  2. It is applied only after the peace treaty has been signed, so only to some degree useful in terms of preventing snowballing.
  3. The threshold of 50 seems arbitrary, which is against the general design philosophy of PC which removed arbitrary limits like force limit
  4. AE is just a number, and many players don't care about it too much anyways as they will continue expanding somewhere else.
And many more reasons that we will hopefully discuss here.
 
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How will we communicate with your war allies? The system of picking provinces of interest was very useful in EU4 and I would like to see it return. There should also be ways of negotiating with the AI over who controls the occupied locations, this was always the most frustrating part of EU4 for me.
 
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Kinda sad about no bilateral peace treaties…

At least for the underlying tech to be there for Multiplayer Games.
 
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Does the system have features that would prevent the creation of unrealistic rump states? For example it doesn't really make any sense for Sweden to continue existing in Västerbotten after all the rest of its land is conquered by Denmark. Or for Novgorod to continue existing as a small remnant around Arkhangelsk while not even owning Novgorod itself. I understand this might be difficult as there are some examples of states continuing to exist after losing their original core territory, like Eastern Rome around Constantinople.

Similarly, are there limitations that would stop the player from, for example, cutting off most of a country's control by strategically taking locations around its capital?
 
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DoctorSnakes said:
I think this is strange. I have no doubt that there are historical examples of wars that were declared for one goal, only for a peace deal to happen where something else is agreed upon. No doubt often done as a compromise, or when the goal changes.
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I think that taking provinces should be more expensive if the war goal one isn't controlled, but a hard limit seems weird if england controlled all northen France during a war, they should be able to ask for some land even tough the war goal was Bordelais
 
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Johan said:
Blue is town, green is city.




View attachment 1196562
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Rejoice! My cries have been heard!

(It also means that my guesswork I've made in the Carpathia TM was a relatively good guess, be sure to check it out when doing the feedback review there;)

purplephoton said:
View attachment 1185618
It's unclear what Tinto counts as rural vs town vs city, so we have a few different possibilities presented here. The locations in green are rural; the locations in pink should probably be towns. The locations in light purple should be at least towns and possibly even cities, depending on what is counted as a city, and the locations in dark purple are the most important and those and therefore make the best candidates for being a city.
Click to expand...
 
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Not super excited by this vs other diaries.

1. Taking land by owning war goal
Be interesting to understand the design choice here. EU4 ticking warscore of not holding the wargoal is a better mechanic but still able to take other land even if you don't occupy it works.

I'm also wondering how historical this is. I'm trying to recall wars where the war goal didn't change hands but other territory was swapped.

2. Multi-sided treaties
Please please please allow for multi-sided treaties where land/money can be exchanged across both winners and losers. Shouldn't be winner wins all. This owning the war goal suggests there won't be big changes of land e.g. 18th century conflict than we hoped.

3. No more AE
AE is a great short term mechanic but it really doesn't stop blobbing. Please say there's another mechanic to help the AI gang up on mega blobs. France owning half the world shouldn't be forgiven because they keep their AE under control. Europe should unite against powers who are stream rolling. That's historical and a fun game mechanic. Look at history and the alliances against Spain and France.
 
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Johan said:
The War Participation is how much a country has contributed to the progress of the war
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Is this a new concept?

I like It very much as It can be used in many instances. For example, the attitude a nation has of your nation.

Have you thought about simulating the will of nations to stay in a war based in the war participation? By looking at each participant warscore and wargoals it is possible to decide the will to stay at war if we compare the current war participation value and the expected value.

The idea is that nations have a will to perform but once they achieve their goals that will is diminished to the point of exiting the war.

PS: the war enthusiasm is only considering internal factors while war participation considers also the expectations of your allies.
 
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Are provinces the smallest units of land that can be exchanged in peace treaties, or can you give and take locations as well? Not talking about when my enemy only controls one location in the province, I'm talking about being able to take specific locations from a province.
 
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