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Tinto Talks #35 - 30th of October

Hello everyone and welcome to another Tinto Talks, as it's a Happy Wednesday, the day of the week where we spill information about our super-mega-fantastically-secret game with the code name of Project Caesar.

Today we’ll talk about three relatively related topics, relating to Country Ranks, Great Powers and Hegemonies.

Country Ranks
There are four ranks that countries can have in Project Caesar. It is more similar to EU4 than Imperator in that changing country ranks is something you actively do on your own. Besides having various rules on what a country can do, they also give some benefits, and rather importantly to the player experience, they impact what the countries are called.

The code supports multiple types of ranks at the same level, so modders could in theory add dozens of variants of a duchy rank if they so desire.

The default rank is the County Rank, which all countries default to, unless set up to be something else.

The first rank above that is the Duchy Rank, where you can now guarantee other countries, and a little bit higher diplomatic capacity and power projection. Countries that start on this level include the Duchy of Brittany or the Duchy of Lithuania. To be able to upgrade from a county to a duchy, you can not be in any International Organizations that disallow rank changes, but you also need at least 100,000 pops of your primary culture.

The next rank above that is the Kingdom Rank, which requires 1 million pops of your primary culture and gives a larger diplomatic range and other abilities. This includes countries like the Kingdom of Sweden and the Sultanate of Delhi

The final rank, the Empire Rank, which is the hardest to promote to, allows for a wider variety of diplomatic actions, and other abilities. At the start of the game there is only one Empire in Europe though, the Eastern Roman one. A country must become a Great Power before they are able to attain this rank, and there are special restrictions on Catholic countries from pretending to be emperors without the Pope’s permission.

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Yeah, Livonian Order with about 380 Prussians has a bit of a challenge here..

Great Powers
A great power is a country that through advances, population, land area, development, and other factors has risen to be one of the most powerful countries in the world, and as such gains the ability to influence other countries simply by throwing its weight around.

The countries with the highest great power score become great powers. Subjects and countries fighting for their independence may not become Great Powers.

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The countries you’d perhaps expect to be Great Powers in 1337 right?


Currently there are always eight different countries that are the Great Powers, but this is not a design we are 100% satisfied with. We have been talking about making the amount variable per age, or by using a threshold. We’ve also talked about mechanics for regional powers, but all designs so far have some severe drawbacks, for example how we would define the geographical area to make it feel good.

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There are some advantages to being a Great Power after all…


Hegemony
This is another feature that was introduced in the ‘Emperor’ DLC for EU4, but here will be a part of the base game. In that game this was a late game mechanic that would pit the most dominant countries against each other. This created a mechanic that most people never saw, and if they saw it in single-player, it was merely a tool to make the player even more powerful when he had already won the game.

In this game, however, the Hegemony mechanics unlock through an advance in the Age of Discovery.

We currently have three types of hegemony, Military, Navy and Economic, in the game, similar to EU4, and you can only be one type of Hegemony at the same time. We could be open to adding maybe a Cultural Hegemony as well, as the next few weeks Tinto Talks will show things about Culture-related systems.

To proclaim a Hegemony you need to be a Great Power, and then have a bigger army, navy or economy than all other great powers. After you proclaim it, you get a bonus where most of it scales with how long you have held the hegemony.

In a game where a casus belli is not always easy to get, the fact that you can always create a Casus Belli on any hegemon, if you are not one yourself, can be beneficial.

If you ever lose a war as a hegemon, you will lose your hegemony.

And remember, if you lose your hegemony, your prestige and diplomatic reputation will suffer.

hegemon.png

This one is kind of fun to have..

Stay tuned, as next week, we will do the first development diary about our new cultural mechanics in Project Caesar.
 
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I hope, unlike in eu4, signing a white peace doesn't count as a loss... Especially against some allies
One viable solution is to create other “kingdom” rank with other conditions like development, military power, prestige and etc.

Based on devs attitudes in this diary, I think they kinda want that but not able to figure out what’s appropriate. So, they leave this to modders and future DLCs.
 
yeah, they get a +250 bonus for being emperor, but Upper Bavaria in 1337 is a tiny country on its own.
Could a GP sit on HRE throne be able to do more (e.g. gain more imperial prestige)? Or would the subjects of HRE intentionally dislike a GP with more authority and power to be their emperor due to fear for reform and further losing their independence?
 
seeing a lot of disagrees on this despite the concept being pretty simple and reasonable. If you lose a war how could you still be a hegemon? You, despite your grandeur, your power, your influence, lost. How can you continue to claim such a title when clearly you never had the means to hold onto it?
Not sure if the US stopped being a hegemon after losing in Vietnam. It should be bad for a hegemon to lose a war but to lose the hegemony I feel like they would have to suffer a debastating defeat.
 
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Precisely.

If a country is sitting there with 10k great power score.

And the closest competitor is only at 1k can you really even consider them an opposing force? Maybe a regional power…

But I’m sure PC is complex enough to have competitiors close enough in score so that this sort of calculation makes sense.

Maybe:

1) 1st of the list is always a GP.

2) You can only be a GP if your score reaches 25% (just saying) of the 1st. (Like 2500 vs. 10000).

3) The number of GP is capped at a maximum of 10 countries.
 
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Personally I don't like the Hegemony system in EU4 and what has been shown here that much it's just kind of a win more mechanic and isn't punishing enough it should be something other nations decide rather than something you pick in it's current form IMO. Ideally, Give mechanics or diplomatic abilities/functions only otherwise it's very arbitrary that my troops move faster just because I have more soldiers.


I'd really love the idea of a hegemony being regional rather than attached to a military navy, etc. An example is that one of the most powerful nations in, say, the region of India is the Hegemon of India, and they are granted unique diplomatic actions.
A hegemon in a region would be decided by the local nations within a Region where they would select together a hegemon who they consider the strongest and most threatening. It'd create a system where powerful nations within a region have to manage this system, where the double-edged sword of say an opinion malice and AE impact increase makes making friends and especially keeping them hard. (Everyone wants to bring down the top dog) in exchange, the Hegemon gets diplomatic interactions where nations in India can request money food troops tech etc and a benevolent hegemon can reap say prestige benefits power projection diplomatic reputation etc, if a great power invades an Indian nation they can call upon the Hegemon to defend them or face a large prestige and diplomatic reputation penalty.


Strength can a lot of the time be about perception and the hegemony system should represent who people THINK is the strongest it should also make the player feel like they are the strongest.
Love the work and thanks for taking the time to read to those that did hope some of the ideas here were interesting.
 
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It seems like both France and England are too high on the list of Great Powers. Is this an amount of boosting from their advances/institutions? Surely the Mamluks, Delhi, and the Golden Horde have greater regional and global impact in 1337

Or we can follow the continent rule and have each continent a GP seat? Or this is more like a Hegemony option.
 
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Just being a great power (and non-Catholic/harder for Catholics) seems like a low bar for an empire (and significantly overlaps the rules for Hegemons). Can I propose you have a requirement for a large number of non-accepted pops to form an empire too? Or a number of subjects?

I also like the idea that (even if you don't have 1M pops of your culture) that taking down an existing empire is a way to become an empire yourself. I'm thinking of the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople, or the Ming/Manchu conquests of China or Mughal conquest of India. The Ottomans and Mughals might have only just met the 1M people of their culture (Turks or Mongols were a significant minority in their empire), and 5M seems impossible for them. To prevent an exploit where you just capture their capital (someone else did the hard work of taking them down and captured most of their land) you should also need to own lots of their cores too.

I'd also like some rules for losing ranks. Think about the kingdom of Jerusalem, is that still of kingdom rank even though it lost most of its land long ago? If the Golden horde became an empire and then declined historically, how small would it need to get to lose the rank and become a kingdom or dutchy? Are the small parts of the Kingdom of Hungary which became a union under Austria still called a kingdom? Would the Timurids lose their empire rank before Babur and have to get it back as the Mughals?

If a slow civil war (like the dutchy of burgundy) slowly ate lots of France at what stage would France stop being the kingdom and Burgundy become the kingdom (I assume it's not the last French province in the world captured)?

Which continent is the Mamluks in? Ottomans?
I'd say anyone with a presence in multiple continents counts as a regional power in them all. Just not in the continents they don't have a presence.
 
Not sure if the US stopped being a hegemon after losing in Vietnam. It should be bad for a hegemon to lose a war but to lose the hegemony I feel like they would have to suffer a debastating defeat.

Possibly the better question would be did it reset the hegemon bonus for the USA?

After you proclaim it, you get a bonus where most of it scales with how long you have held the hegemony.

To use your example USA had a great reputation from the World Wars and so got the army hegemon. it ticked up. After Vietnam the bonus they got from the reputation was lowered. i.e. the bonus reset.

We don't know how easy it is to reclaim Hegemon status after losing it. It might even be instantaneous - it's that one line about the bonus ticking over time that is the bonus, and COST, of the hegemon. If you have one you need to DEFEND it, everywhere and constantly, since a momentary lapse will cost you.
 
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Which continent is the Mamluks in? Ottomans?
Could it be done using a distance modifier. E.g. if a country does not qualify as a Great power, but it is one of the x most powerful non-great power countries within a distance of y, and its power is no less than z% of the average of the higher ranking regional powers within that distance (or alternatively z% of the highest ranked regional power), then the country is a regional power. Alternatively, one could say that you are considered a regional power within a certain region, e.g. Western or Eastern Europe if you are among the x most powerful non-great power countries which holds provinces within that region, but the power calculation is biased towards power in that region, with only provinces in that region counting 100% towards the power calculation, provinces in neighboring regions 75%, 50% for provinces two regions away, and 25% for all other provinces. That means that Sweden may be able to throw its weight around as a regional power in say Northern Europe (depending on how you wish to divide regions) and benefitting from a status as a regional power when dealing with countries with their capital in Northern Europe, but not when dealing with countries outside that region. Of course, countries should be able to be considered regional powers in more than one region, until they achieve great power rank which applies globally and supersedes regional power status.
 
But we have a Great Yuan
Yes, but world wasnt globalised yet, thats why I suggested in order to unlock great powers, there should be a nation who is regional power of at least 2 continent and regional power of 4-5 region, and there will only be regional powers before a nation becomes great power, then the continent limit will be off and being regional power of 4-5 region will be enough to be great power such as Great Qing


As for me, without world being globalized, great power means nothing to me
of course Great Yuan is very powerful, but it still doesnt matter for someone outside of East Asia
 
Yes, but world wasnt globalised yet, thats why I suggested in order to unlock great powers, there should be a nation who is regional power of at least 2 continent and regional power of 4-5 region, and there will only be regional powers before a nation becomes great power, then the continent limit will be off and being regional power of 4-5 region will be enough to be great power such as Great Qing


As for me, without world being globalized, great power means nothing to me
of course Great Yuan is very powerful, but it still doesnt matter for someone outside of East Asia
What I mean is that Great Yuan has already become a superpower in the five regions of Northeast Asia, East Asia, Southeast Asia, Tibet, and Central Asia
 
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It also feels weird that you can't form an empire if you don't have enough pops of your *own* culture. Empires typically rule over lots of *other* cultures from their home culture. If you're a big culturally homogenous state you're not really an empire, just a big kingdom. If anything empire rank should require at least 5m pops of cultures other than your primary culture. Though just generally 5m pops seems better.

I think we need a trigger called “accepted_culture_populations_in_country” on top of the primary culture one Johan shown in earlier reply.

Also, to my pov, culture development makes more sense, if there aren’t other economic related triggers. Culture military personnel, prestige, power projection and others could also be involved. I think the devs just don’t know which to pick, so they go for the factor equivalent to “total_development” in Eu4.

Tbh, as time advance in game, the average pop a location would have increased. Hypothetically speaking, even tiny city in the Netherlands could have 100k pop around 18th century. Which makes the Empire tier cheaper and cheaper to gain ( as in Eu4). But, in reality, the densely populated countries in Europe and Asia weren’t all recognised as Empire.

I believe in this regard we need more Victoria than EU pov. Using the concept of recognition rather than abstract Kingdom and Empire. After all, the GP system makes more sense plus a free power score. With that system existing, I feel the country ranks, in their current definition are a bit redundant.

Based on such, I think they’d better change it to a concept of national prestige (having a King of a people) or some sort of administrative efficiency levels (size of your country = size of your governance, even for anarchic ones), rather than arbitrary titles.
 
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What I mean is that Great Yuan has already become a superpower in the five regions of Northeast Asia, East Asia, Southeast Asia, Tibet, and Central Asia
Yes, but not on two different continent

I am suggesting there should only regional powers until world becomes globalized I mean
Until someone becomes multicontinental power, and unlocks great power mechanic and other regional power start becoming great powers too without continent limit


Or just make it unlock in age of absolutism, I dont know
 
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what are "the artists"? what do artists do?
Increase the influence of culture or cultural traditions. It might affect assimilation speed or more likely, culture buffs. We've seen cultural traditions affect many things before

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Ordering painting and getting cultural traditions is not a new thing for the series, before it was needed for the best advisers, but here I think it is needed for the system like in CK. Or maybe artists will work as advisers, but only for things related to culture
 
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Yes, but not on two different continent

I am suggesting there should only regional powers until world becomes globalized I mean
Until someone becomes multicontinental power, and unlocks great power mechanic and other regional power start becoming great powers too without continent limit


Or just make it unlock in age of absolutism, I dont know
It seems that I misunderstood, but crossing several continents is also unreasonable, probably after colonizing the New World. Because for countries in the Eastern Mediterranean, spanning two or even three continents is quite simple
 
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It seems that I misunderstood, but crossing several continents is also unreasonable, probably after colonizing the New World. Because for countries in the Eastern Mediterranean, spanning two or even three continents is quite simple
It could be tied to eras. Before a certain point you would have only "mayor regional powers" and "minor regional powers" with the great power list, that allows for more interactions, unlocking at a certain stage (possibly the 1500s) after the world is becoming more globalized.
 
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It seems that I misunderstood, but crossing several continents is also unreasonable, probably after colonizing the New World. Because for countries in the Eastern Mediterranean, spanning two or even three continents is quite simple
Yea, it could be constrained to ages too, or North Africa could be excluded for European and Middle east nations, instead it would require you to become regional power of two distant regions I dont know
 
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Don't know about hegemony, but great powers can be super regional based, that is for each super region there can be only one great power, but this would prove to be difficult for Europe as countries like Spain, France and England would be competing each other to be great power of Western Europe.
PS, the Golden Horde man showed in the front page seems a little too East Asians don't you think? They have been living in Pontic Steppes for a 100 years and marrying with the locals for 100 years, with the severe lack of Mongolian women the Golden Horde would be looking a lot more like Eastern Europeans/Caucasians than East Asians.