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Tinto Talks #35 - 30th of October

Hello everyone and welcome to another Tinto Talks, as it's a Happy Wednesday, the day of the week where we spill information about our super-mega-fantastically-secret game with the code name of Project Caesar.

Today we’ll talk about three relatively related topics, relating to Country Ranks, Great Powers and Hegemonies.

Country Ranks
There are four ranks that countries can have in Project Caesar. It is more similar to EU4 than Imperator in that changing country ranks is something you actively do on your own. Besides having various rules on what a country can do, they also give some benefits, and rather importantly to the player experience, they impact what the countries are called.

The code supports multiple types of ranks at the same level, so modders could in theory add dozens of variants of a duchy rank if they so desire.

The default rank is the County Rank, which all countries default to, unless set up to be something else.

The first rank above that is the Duchy Rank, where you can now guarantee other countries, and a little bit higher diplomatic capacity and power projection. Countries that start on this level include the Duchy of Brittany or the Duchy of Lithuania. To be able to upgrade from a county to a duchy, you can not be in any International Organizations that disallow rank changes, but you also need at least 100,000 pops of your primary culture.

The next rank above that is the Kingdom Rank, which requires 1 million pops of your primary culture and gives a larger diplomatic range and other abilities. This includes countries like the Kingdom of Sweden and the Sultanate of Delhi

The final rank, the Empire Rank, which is the hardest to promote to, allows for a wider variety of diplomatic actions, and other abilities. At the start of the game there is only one Empire in Europe though, the Eastern Roman one. A country must become a Great Power before they are able to attain this rank, and there are special restrictions on Catholic countries from pretending to be emperors without the Pope’s permission.

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Yeah, Livonian Order with about 380 Prussians has a bit of a challenge here..

Great Powers
A great power is a country that through advances, population, land area, development, and other factors has risen to be one of the most powerful countries in the world, and as such gains the ability to influence other countries simply by throwing its weight around.

The countries with the highest great power score become great powers. Subjects and countries fighting for their independence may not become Great Powers.

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The countries you’d perhaps expect to be Great Powers in 1337 right?


Currently there are always eight different countries that are the Great Powers, but this is not a design we are 100% satisfied with. We have been talking about making the amount variable per age, or by using a threshold. We’ve also talked about mechanics for regional powers, but all designs so far have some severe drawbacks, for example how we would define the geographical area to make it feel good.

gp_benefit.png

There are some advantages to being a Great Power after all…


Hegemony
This is another feature that was introduced in the ‘Emperor’ DLC for EU4, but here will be a part of the base game. In that game this was a late game mechanic that would pit the most dominant countries against each other. This created a mechanic that most people never saw, and if they saw it in single-player, it was merely a tool to make the player even more powerful when he had already won the game.

In this game, however, the Hegemony mechanics unlock through an advance in the Age of Discovery.

We currently have three types of hegemony, Military, Navy and Economic, in the game, similar to EU4, and you can only be one type of Hegemony at the same time. We could be open to adding maybe a Cultural Hegemony as well, as the next few weeks Tinto Talks will show things about Culture-related systems.

To proclaim a Hegemony you need to be a Great Power, and then have a bigger army, navy or economy than all other great powers. After you proclaim it, you get a bonus where most of it scales with how long you have held the hegemony.

In a game where a casus belli is not always easy to get, the fact that you can always create a Casus Belli on any hegemon, if you are not one yourself, can be beneficial.

If you ever lose a war as a hegemon, you will lose your hegemony.

And remember, if you lose your hegemony, your prestige and diplomatic reputation will suffer.

hegemon.png

This one is kind of fun to have..

Stay tuned, as next week, we will do the first development diary about our new cultural mechanics in Project Caesar.
 
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Johan is living in a dream. France would be take over all of europe if they was powerful like that you are out of your f4cking mind
I suspect vassals give a flat bonus, maybe regardless to their power or size; and France has dozens or stupidly tiny county vassals, and if they all give a mere +25 great power bonus or something, it sums up considerably. I'd actually even bet that that if the calculation just plain and simple added the full power of these vassals to that of France, and did the same with Delhi, Delhi would actually be second and France only 3rd-4th or even 5th
 
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I suspect vassals give a flat bonus, maybe regardless to their power or size; and France has dozens or stupidly tiny county vassals, and if they all give a mere +25 great power bonus or something, it sums up considerably. I'd actually even bet that that if the calculation just plain and simple added the full power of these vassals to that of France, and did the same with Delhi, Delhi would actually be second and France only 3rd-4th or even 5th
Whatever it is, all i know that is so stup1d. Even in the coalition of europe in later 1300s and 1400s, they couldnt beat Ottoman. And even ottomans are not in the list they made France and england are superpower :D I dont want to write about power of mamluks delhi yuan golden horde or etc but what i know is this game will not be played as they want..
 
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Whatever it is, all i know that is so stup1d. Even in the coalition of europe in later 1300s and 1400s, they couldnt beat Ottoman. And even ottomans are not in the list they made France and england are superpower :D I dont want to write about power of mamluks delhi yuan golden horde or etc but what i know is this game will not be played as they want..
Ottomans were in all honesty only a minor beylik in 1337. France could probably considered a great power due to its size, power and wealth, but only at around 5-6th place behind Yuan, Delhi, the Golden Horde, the Mamluks, maybe even Chagatai
 
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1- Will it be possible to upgrade to the rank of Empire and for our leader to keep the title of King ? This is something that happened in the United Kingdom for example.

2- Will there be a special mechanic for the French Empire ? Knowing that it arose from the revolution.
 
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The problem of having ‘regional’ great powers can be solved using the diplomatic range you have introduced in the previous tinto talk. There is no need to divide the world up into regions causing problems like is the Mamelukes in Asia or Africa.

Rather countries should consider another a ‘regional’ power if they are within diplomatic range plus the great power conditions you already have. A ‘great’ power should be a country that is considered a ‘regional’ power by some threshold number of countries plus some extra conditions.

Finally a hegemon can stay as it is. I would argue that if a hegemon loses a war it could well still be a hegemon. Britain lost a number of wars during the 18th-early 20th centuries, but no one would doubt it was the foremost economic/naval power during large portions of that time.
 
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Will we ever see again (in Project Caesar possibly) a system like the one we had once in Imperator: Rome where you could ally only countries with same rank while with those of a lower rank you could only have relations such as “client state” and the like? I personally really enjoyed it and found it quite realistic.
 
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Two things, could it be possible make a nation be a regional power for multiple regions, e.g. Mamluks maybe calculate it similar to your great power points, just regionally with a fraction (of these points) bleeding over to adjacent regions (as "bonus" points or force projection).

You could then maybe define a great power to be one that is a regional power in multiple regions (e.g. 4+) (similar to what was already proposed) and is able to exert control or have some kind of power projection for example via vassals, own presence (own clay) or maritime presence on multiple regions/continents or so.

That way we could have mostly (or depending on the requirements only) regional powers (though maybe very close to great) at the start of the game (which could maybe be split into minor and major regional powers to differenciate for example yuan from japan or maybe naples and france if necessary) and later in the game, after for example colonialism, global great powers start appearing (more frequently) due to much greater force projection and expansion.
 
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I'm not a fan of the primary culture requirement. If I take France for example, it is very far from the 5 millions pop requirement to be an empire. I'm not even sure they have the 1 million primary pop to have the kingdom rank.
No one has. Accepted Culture makes more sense.
There weren't 5 million Turks in Anatolia and Balkans when Mehmed II claimed Empire after 1453. But there was some kind of acceptance among the folks towards Ottoman government, including Greeks and Bulgarians.
 
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Ottomans were in all honesty only a minor beylik in 1337. France could probably considered a great power due to its size, power and wealth, but only at around 5-6th place behind Yuan, Delhi, the Golden Horde, the Mamluks, maybe even Chagatai
I dont say Ottoman should be superpower. They should not in 1337 by sure but, Mamluk,Delhi,GoldenHorde,Yuan,
Lots of historical superpower states in 1300s any of them are as powerful as half of all europe, but France and england (which are superpower in 1600 1700s) are superpower in 1300s :D what kind of glorify europe is that
 
Ottomans were in all honesty only a minor beylik in 1337. France could probably considered a great power due to its size, power and wealth, but only at around 5-6th place behind Yuan, Delhi, the Golden Horde, the Mamluks, maybe even Chagatai
Chagatai, ilkhanate, this states would take over all of europe in 1300s if they was in europe. There wasnt even regular professional army in europe before later 1430s
 
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Now i can say this is bullsh1t. France is more powerful than goldenhorde, Delhi,Memlûk or otherss. But it is normal for paradox to make europe much more powerful than it was. The game wouldnt be played if you didnt do that.
Keep in mind that this ranking list is also right before the 100 years war and black death which DRASTICALLY reduced France and England's power.
Delhi is also currently in a crisis on the verge of collapse and the golden horde is largely a military hegemon ruling over super poor territories (and unsure if the Russian tributary IO is properly being calculated).

Additionally great power ranking is not a military ranking, but more of an economic/diplomatic ranking.

I should note that after the fix to vassal giving too much GP points that Johan mentioned, France and England do already rank below Delhi, GH and far below Yuan, and while idk how much we have to compare mamluks to the europeans, they did not put up a meaningfully better fight vs the Timurids compared to the crusaders.
 
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I dont say Ottoman should be superpower. They should not in 1337 by sure but, Mamluk,Delhi,GoldenHorde,Yuan,
Lots of historical superpower states in 1300s any of them are as powerful as half of all europe, but France and england (which are superpower in 1600 1700s) are superpower in 1300s :D what kind of glorify europe is that
To be fair, this is an exaggeration, the Golden Horde for example was pretty much crumbling at this point, not long after the start date they would lose Moldavia, and not much later their Russian vassals and then soon crumble.

Also, I disagree with your assumption that this list would be a result of some evil attempt at "glorifying Europe" or with your entire attitude. Johan has been pretty clear about the fact that this is WIP, and the place of France on the list has been confirmed to be explained by the unbalanced nature of the bonus given by vassals, of which France has a bogus amount.
 
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Keep in mind that this ranking list is also right before the 100 years war and black death which DRASTICALLY reduced France and England's power.
Delhi is also currently in a crisis on the verge of collapse and the golden horde is largely a military hegemon ruling over super poor territories (and unsure if the Russian tributary IO is properly being calculated).

Additionally great power ranking is not a military ranking, but more of an economic/diplomatic ranking.

I should note that after the fix to vassal giving too much GP points that Johan mentioned, France and England do already rank below Delhi, GH and far below Yuan.
Well i played eu4, so i know it is before black death or something doesnt matter. Europe will be overpowered again. Colonization will start in 1400s we know that things in eu4
 
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To be fair, this is an exaggeration, the Golden Horde for example was pretty much crumbling at this point, not long after the start date they would lose Moldavia, and not much later their Russian vassals and then soon crumble.

Also, I disagree with your assumption that this list would be a result of some evil attempt at "glorifying Europe" or with your entire attitude. Johan has been pretty clear about the fact that this is WIP, and the place of France on the list has been confirmed to be explained by the unbalanced nature of the bonus given by vassals, of which France has a bogus amount.
Ozbeg Khan? Crumbling Golden Horde? What history are you paying attention to? In 1337 the Golden Horde is raiding Thrace, being involved in the politics of Russia and picking sides in their wars, opposing Poland, and all sorts of things. Only after he does in 1341 do you see things diminish a bit (losing Moldavia). Jani Beg wasn't all that weak, either, though by then you could certainly claim that things were trending towards instability.

With extremely interpersonally-ruled realms like the Golden Horde, you have to be very particular about trying to draw trend lines, because who's actually in charge matters greatly.
 
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Ozbeg Khan? Crumbling Golden Horde? What history are you paying attention to? In 1337 the Golden Horde is raiding Thrace, being involved in the politics of Russia and picking sides in their wars, opposing Poland, and all sorts of things. Only after he does in 1341 do you see things diminish a bit (losing Moldavia). Jani Beg wasn't all that weak, either, though by then you could certainly claim that things were trending towards instability.

With extremely interpersonally-ruled realms like the Golden Horde, you have to be very particular about trying to draw trend lines, because who's actually in charge matters greatly.
Yes, Golden horde was much powerful than all of europe countries in that dates. @dbruser said Delhi had crisis but no. Delhi was at its pek in that dates. Under Commander Sultan Tugluk. Thay beat mongols and take lands from them
 
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Ozbeg Khan? Crumbling Golden Horde? What history are you paying attention to? In 1337 the Golden Horde is raiding Thrace, being involved in the politics of Russia and picking sides in their wars, opposing Poland, and all sorts of things. Only after he does in 1341 do you see things diminish a bit (losing Moldavia). Jani Beg wasn't all that weak, either, though by then you could certainly claim that things were trending towards instability.

With extremely interpersonally-ruled realms like the Golden Horde, you have to be very particular about trying to draw trend lines, because who's actually in charge matters greatly.
A raid in Thrace doesn't negate the fact that from this point on they are going down hill, even if they are still going strong.
Only within 4 years, they lost to a country less than half their size. I did not say they were weak, but they were definitely not as strong as Emp3ror above states
 
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Well i played eu4, so i know it is before black death or something doesnt matter. Europe will be overpowered again. Colonization will start in 1400s we know that things in eu4
They made it pretty clear that a lot of things are going to be different from EU4. The black death and 100 years war hugely impacted France. In 1300, France has one of the largest populations among any country (barring Yuan and maybe Delhi), they were also wealthy and very developed - especially compared to most of Europe. The situation will be drastically different in the 1400s (especially depending on how the 100 years war plays out).

The golden horde was a militaristically impressive power, but economically - not so much.

I mentioned the Delhi sultante (I will have to check the thread to make sure) because I think they said it starts the game with a situation that will usually dissolve the empire. In 1337 it has already started losing territories to rebellion.

Edit: Revolts began in Delhi sultante in 1327, 10 years before the start date and continued over the sultan's reign. The height of territory map dates 1330-1335 (because in 1335 it lost territory), and there were other sections that broke off shortly after the start. They just had their army decimated in Northern india with ongoing famines and widespread poverty, and Vijaynagara popped up in the south. Delhi is on the brink of collapse in 1337. The Delhi sultante loses most of it's territory within 10 years of game start.
 
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To be fair, this is an exaggeration, the Golden Horde for example was pretty much crumbling at this point, not long after the start date they would lose Moldavia, and not much later their Russian vassals and then soon crumble.

Also, I disagree with your assumption that this list would be a result of some evil attempt at "glorifying Europe" or with your entire attitude. Johan has been pretty clear about the fact that this is WIP, and the place of France on the list has been confirmed to be explained by the unbalanced nature of the bonus given by vassals, of which France has a bogus amount.
No no no. We know that is glorifying europe. We saw that in eu4. I couldnt beat France with Ottoman Empire in later 1500s????? Europe pips making dice work for them. Then what is for technology? They say they fixed Technology system( that) in project ceasar, But renaisannce start at 1337 what is this :D how can renaisannce start in 1337 :D
 
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Yes, Golden horde was much powerful than all of europe countries in that dates. @dbruser said Delhi had crisis but no. Delhi was at its pek in that dates. Under Commander Sultan Tugluk. Thay beat mongols and take lands from them
They still lost Moldavia just a few years after the start date to a much smaller and weaker Hungary. You are exaggerating the power of the GH significantly; they were a great power, sure, just not a super one.

They made it pretty clear that a lot of things are going to be different from EU4. The black death and 100 years war hugely impacted France. In 1300, France has one of the largest populations among any country (barring Yuan and maybe Delhi), they were also wealthy and very developed - especially compared to most of Europe. The situation will be drastically different in the 1400s (especially depending on how the 100 years war plays out).

The golden horde was a militaristically impressive power, but economically - not so much.
France had circa 10-15M people, while Delhi according to Paradox is at 41M, which sounds reasonably accurate; still, I think France would only rank at around 5-6th place at most
 
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