• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Talks #35 - 30th of October

Hello everyone and welcome to another Tinto Talks, as it's a Happy Wednesday, the day of the week where we spill information about our super-mega-fantastically-secret game with the code name of Project Caesar.

Today we’ll talk about three relatively related topics, relating to Country Ranks, Great Powers and Hegemonies.

Country Ranks
There are four ranks that countries can have in Project Caesar. It is more similar to EU4 than Imperator in that changing country ranks is something you actively do on your own. Besides having various rules on what a country can do, they also give some benefits, and rather importantly to the player experience, they impact what the countries are called.

The code supports multiple types of ranks at the same level, so modders could in theory add dozens of variants of a duchy rank if they so desire.

The default rank is the County Rank, which all countries default to, unless set up to be something else.

The first rank above that is the Duchy Rank, where you can now guarantee other countries, and a little bit higher diplomatic capacity and power projection. Countries that start on this level include the Duchy of Brittany or the Duchy of Lithuania. To be able to upgrade from a county to a duchy, you can not be in any International Organizations that disallow rank changes, but you also need at least 100,000 pops of your primary culture.

The next rank above that is the Kingdom Rank, which requires 1 million pops of your primary culture and gives a larger diplomatic range and other abilities. This includes countries like the Kingdom of Sweden and the Sultanate of Delhi

The final rank, the Empire Rank, which is the hardest to promote to, allows for a wider variety of diplomatic actions, and other abilities. At the start of the game there is only one Empire in Europe though, the Eastern Roman one. A country must become a Great Power before they are able to attain this rank, and there are special restrictions on Catholic countries from pretending to be emperors without the Pope’s permission.

become_kingdom.png

Yeah, Livonian Order with about 380 Prussians has a bit of a challenge here..

Great Powers
A great power is a country that through advances, population, land area, development, and other factors has risen to be one of the most powerful countries in the world, and as such gains the ability to influence other countries simply by throwing its weight around.

The countries with the highest great power score become great powers. Subjects and countries fighting for their independence may not become Great Powers.

1730281525724.png

The countries you’d perhaps expect to be Great Powers in 1337 right?


Currently there are always eight different countries that are the Great Powers, but this is not a design we are 100% satisfied with. We have been talking about making the amount variable per age, or by using a threshold. We’ve also talked about mechanics for regional powers, but all designs so far have some severe drawbacks, for example how we would define the geographical area to make it feel good.

gp_benefit.png

There are some advantages to being a Great Power after all…


Hegemony
This is another feature that was introduced in the ‘Emperor’ DLC for EU4, but here will be a part of the base game. In that game this was a late game mechanic that would pit the most dominant countries against each other. This created a mechanic that most people never saw, and if they saw it in single-player, it was merely a tool to make the player even more powerful when he had already won the game.

In this game, however, the Hegemony mechanics unlock through an advance in the Age of Discovery.

We currently have three types of hegemony, Military, Navy and Economic, in the game, similar to EU4, and you can only be one type of Hegemony at the same time. We could be open to adding maybe a Cultural Hegemony as well, as the next few weeks Tinto Talks will show things about Culture-related systems.

To proclaim a Hegemony you need to be a Great Power, and then have a bigger army, navy or economy than all other great powers. After you proclaim it, you get a bonus where most of it scales with how long you have held the hegemony.

In a game where a casus belli is not always easy to get, the fact that you can always create a Casus Belli on any hegemon, if you are not one yourself, can be beneficial.

If you ever lose a war as a hegemon, you will lose your hegemony.

And remember, if you lose your hegemony, your prestige and diplomatic reputation will suffer.

hegemon.png

This one is kind of fun to have..

Stay tuned, as next week, we will do the first development diary about our new cultural mechanics in Project Caesar.
 
  • 186Like
  • 92
  • 46Love
  • 17
  • 5
Reactions:
I think you need to have some confidence in your country. From a population perspective, France was indeed the wealthiest country in Europe at that time. Saying that France is not as good as Novgorod is too self deprecating ;)
Wealthiest based on what?

The biggest army France fielded during the HYW (after 1400) was approx 25k men. At Kulikovo the Rus principalities fielded at least 30k and up to 60k, it's not really close
 
Wealthiest based on what?

The biggest army France fielded during the HYW (after 1400) was approx 25k men. At Kulikovo the Rus principalities fielded at least 30k and up to 60k, it's not really close
pop.jpg
It is based on this population picture that Novgorod is only one of the Russian republics, and definitely has a smaller population than Russia on this picture
 
Hmmmm. Can’t it be more punishing? Like if you have a strong navy. It’s not you who claim the hegemony, but the other nations start deeming you as a navy hegemon, cutting ties with you and becoming more fearful. Like an endgame limitation. Will also stop the power creep because why you need more buffs when you are literally a hegemon
So much this.. Why wouldn't the great power calculation or a separate calculation include a more direct number representing military power, naval power and economic power that is (also) used to compare nations against each other to determine if and whom would be a hegemon (over 50% difference to the number 2 makes you hegemon or something similar). In the first ages on a regional scale and in the final age(s) also on a global scale. Wouldn't that cause France and England to forget old grudges against each other and team up against naval hegemon Spain at the start of a '80 year' war helping the Dutch with their tiny fleet especially at the start of the war 'preventing' (not very successfully) the Spanish to land troops at will? Without the desire of both France but especially England to cut down/control the size of the Spanish fleet this would have been an 80 day war with a different outcome. And if determined so by these calculations, why wouldn't a nation be able to hold more than one hegemon title regional and/or global.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I, alongside a number of others I personally speak with, seem to think Hegemonies are moving in the wrong direction.

You expressed that you saw Hegemonies as a tool to make you more powerful when you'd already won the game and... it's pretty much moving in the exact same direction here. It requires you to be a Great Power worldwide, and have a larger Army/Navy/Economy than any other Great Power worldwide. It is a mechanic that encourages you to snowball, which I think is just a humongous miss here.

I don't mind Hegemonies returning, but they should be something to make the late game feel more interesting for when a player already is exceptionally powerful. It shouldn't be a goal, but instead should be even a hindrance. It should change the way that countries react to you, and it changes the way you need to interact outwards in a manner that should realistically follow when such 'Hegemons' actually reasonably showed up in History.

There have already been many great posts on the forums, one which that has been gaining much traction being

Whilst I do not agree with everything in that post, I think it captures a very good ideal in that there seems to be far more that could be done with this mechanic to make it an engaging part of the game for what time you'd often be encountering it. Because this seems to be taking the same direction EU4 Hegemonies had, except you might see them slightly more often. Which doesn't address the core issues of the system for many players realistically.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
To be honest, I didn't like the great powers thingy at all. For one, it doesn't exist until near the end of the game. Two, regional powers would be better. For example, the Aztecs, the Incas, and the Chinese are the undisputed powers within their region, and they don't care about which whatchamacallit is the power over other regions. The Aztecs certainly didn't care about Spain until they were conquered, and then Spain supplanted them as the power of the Mexica region.

I think it would be better if you have regional powers, and then allow a tech or several techs to extend the reach of your power projection beyond regions, which in the end of the game, effectively gives you max power projection range.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
What if regional powers didn't work off geographical area? What if instead they simply needed to be at least x amount more powerfull than all countries within x distance?
 
  • 5Like
Reactions:
Happy Wednesday! I really think 8 great power floor/cap is a step backward. While Victoria 3's system has problems I think it would be preferable to just a top 8 system. There are a lot of different levers you can use to tweak it and have a dynamic system that has reasonable outputs. You can put modifiers for point generation behind techs that Europeans research first, for example, if you wanted it to be more Euro biased. A cap or floor on points needed to create a GP creates weird outcomes that are worse than a dynamic system that is sometimes strange.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I just realized the Sultanate of Delhi isn't an Empire... why not exactly?
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
You would not be able to form a Kingdom if you don't have 1M of your primary culture.
that makes no sense. i suggest you find a different naming convention for the nation tiers. hegemon is fine as it doesn't distinguish government type, but calling something 'kingdom' because of its population size (or not calling it a kingdom because of its lack of population) is absurd. a settled society's social & governmental structure does not equal its standing compared to others.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
I know I am late to the party, but I want to quickly add an idea.
Currently there are always eight different countries that are the Great Powers, but this is not a design we are 100% satisfied with. We have been talking about making the amount variable per age, or by using a threshold. We’ve also talked about mechanics for regional powers, but all designs so far have some severe drawbacks, for example how we would define the geographical area to make it feel good.
I think Victoria 3's solution here is brilliant. To be a great power you need either 5 times more prestige than the global average or need to be within 75% prestige of the highest ranking country. This creates a dynamic threashold, which works quite well in my opinion. Of course you would have to change prestige with great power points for PC.

To be a regional power you could change the requirements to "have at least 2 times more great power score than the average all countries within range x" or something similar. (assuming there is diplomatic range in this game)
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Now i can say this is bullsh1t. France is more powerful than goldenhorde, Delhi,Memlûk or otherss. But it is normal for paradox to make europe much more powerful than it was. The game wouldnt be played if you didnt do that.
 
  • 6
  • 1Like
Reactions: