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Tinto Talks #40 - 4th of December 2024

Hello everyone and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday when we talk more about our upcoming top secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will go into details about the government reforms and look into some specific ones that you may use or not.

Representing everything from ancient traditions to progressive amendments, Government Reforms outline the shape of governance in a country. Each one is unique, but they often give powerful trade-offs or open up unique play styles.

At the start of the game, countries are only allowed 2 government reforms, but in every Age there is at least one advance that unlocks another slot for reforms. Some specific reforms also add another slot, so they are essentially “free” for that country. On average in the final Age of the game, a country may have 7 or 8 reforms.

Common Government Reforms that are available to everyone are likely to have an Age requirement, spreading out their availability over the game.

Some reforms are major reforms, and a country may not have more than one major reform at the same time.

There will be a diverse selection of reforms in each age, with about 5 common new ones added each age, and another 2 per government type. The unique ones are far more plentiful, and diverse, with over 150 currently in the game.

In the User Interface, the government reforms exist in the Crown’s part of the Estates Screen, as the Crown does not really have any estate privileges…

french_estates.png
France can have 3 reforms, but are the current ones actually beneficial?



Removing a Government Reform currently costs 20 stability, which is a bit cheap, but that may change. Some reforms can not be removed at will though, and are locked until specific circumstances allow them to be removed.

Adding a new reform does not have a cost, but it takes up to 2 years before the benefits are fully implemented.



Common Reforms
Here are some examples of early government reforms that many nations have access to from the start.

Religious Tolerance
For when your country is populated by people who practice different beliefs and confessions. Therefore, it would be prudent to govern in a tolerant manner with them, ensuring their support for the government.

religious_tolerance.png

It will make your country a bit more communal though..

Diplomatic Traditions
From time immemorial our people have favored the word above the sword, giving us the ability to forge lasting relationships with our allies and friends and a reputation as honest and loyal.

diplomatic_traditions.png

For certain types of countries, this is rather important..


Military Order
This is a major reform that catholic theocracies have access to. It is one of the types of reforms that truly defines a country.

The Military Orders were created in the Middle Ages as a militant body of the Catholic Church. Its members are both warriors and monks who take religious vows and are destined to defend and expand Christianity.

military_order.png

Military Sponsorships are vitally important to a Holy Order!



Unique Government Reforms
So let's take a look at some of the more unique government reforms that we have in the game right now.

Family Sagas
This is a unique reform that anyone with the primary culture of Icelandic can get, which both Iceland and Greenland starts with.

Our ancient sagas passed orally through the generations tell of adventurous expeditions to a distant and wild land over the western sea. Perhaps one day we may follow in the footsteps of our old compatriots.

family_sagas.png

If only they had the population to exploit it..

Three Departments
This is available to any country that has Chinese or Korean as their court language.

The Three Departments System originates from the ancient Chinese empires and is the primary administrative structure of the state. All departments focus on several aspects of the process of drafting, establishing and revisiting state policies.

three_departments.png

If you want laws changed, this is the reform to have..

Magna Carta
This is a unique reform that England starts with, and is also possible for any country with the English primary culture, or if their overlord has this reform.

The 'Great Charter' is a constitutional law that distributes power away from the monarch and towards the barons. First signed in 1215, it is also one of the earliest documents to enshrine the idea of civil liberties, such as the right to a fair trial, and protection against illegal imprisonment.

magna_carta.png

It gives some power to the nobility, and shapes the country towards certain ideals.


Stay tuned, as next week we will look into all the different types of Parliaments, and how you interact with them...
 
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I'll be more precise, then; it's giving them an ability 100-150 years before everyone else in the tech tree, including the major pioneers of it. To me that implies the belief they should have a leg-up over tech-ready tags on being able to explore.

That's a boon, no matter how you look at it. You get something for free that everyone else has to spend resources on for 20% of a competitive game's runtime.
Dont you assume a hella lot in that?

We have zero knowledge about when you would get access to those abilities, except johan saying settled countries can explore from day 1. The majority of exploration could be bound behind advances which makes things more sustainable, cheaper and increase the probability of success. or just advances to ships which make deep ocean travel viable.
aka all the stuff that actually made portugal succeed.

We also know that the greenland colonies probably will fail. and that iceland has a small population, harsh envioment etc.

Just because they have access to something doesnt mean they will be able to use it effectively. Like would it be totally ahistorical if Greenland managed to survive as a colony and Iceland had 1 location in Vinland?
To me it seems like people keep using EUIV logic and ignoring what we know about exploration cost, colony cost, population impact etc.
 
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Dont you assume a hella lot in that?

We have zero knowledge about when you would get access to those abilities, except johan saying settled countries can explore from day 1. The majority of exploration could be bound behind advances which makes things more sustainable, cheaper and increase the probability of success. or just advances to ships which make deep ocean travel viable.
aka all the stuff that actually made portugal succeed.

We also know that the greenland colonies probably will fail. and that iceland has a small population, harsh envioment etc.

Just because they have access to something doesnt mean they will be able to use it effectively. Like would it be totally ahistorical if Greenland managed to survive as a colony and Iceland had 1 location in Vinland?
To me it seems like people keep using EUIV logic and ignoring what we know about exploration cost, colony cost, population impact etc.

Then if they can't make good use of it in the game, then why not just let them have to use the tech tree like everyone else and give them something else better? :| Why give them the automatic check, if no one expects them to use it? Why not a naval tech boost to make them faster at researching exploration, than an immediate, game-start permission to do it?

See how this keeps going in circles? It's wanting this automatic check for the sake of wanting it, regardless if its appropriate or beneficial to Iceland.
 
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And for that, they should be given the automatic ability to keep exploring and settle other places? Why can't that just be modelled by giving them game-start knowledge of the Canadian coast?

And then make Family Sagas give a more appropriate benefit, related to culture, literacy, sailing or ability to settle artic lands. Something they can make better and more appropriate use of.
They were still going there : can recruit explorers yes
They have a history of expanding west and had a colony in Vinland : invite settlers yes
They are sailors : monthly naval +0.01
They were still going there : allow exploration yes (though what's the difference with having access to explorers ? Is it only for naval exploration ?)

Then if they can't make good use of it in the game,
Memes make fun games.

then why not just let them have to use the tech tree like everyone else and give them something else better?
See first part of this message : they already know how to go oversea
 
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Then if they can't make good use of it in the game, then why not just let them have to use the tech tree like everyone else and give them something else better? :| Why give them the automatic check, if no one expects them to use it? Why not a naval tech boost to make them faster at researching exploration, than an immediate, game-start permission to do it?

See how this keeps going in circles? It's wanting this automatic check for the sake of wanting it, regardless if its appropriate or beneficial to Iceland.
I'm really not sure why you keep assuming that something being hard to make use of means it's impossible...
Nobody's expecting it not to be used, or we'd not want it in the game. We're expecting that it will not be easy to use.

The reason it's going in circles is that you keep misrepresenting or ignoring what people are arguing. Nobody here is saying it's impossible to use. People keep saying that resources constrain its use at the beginning. That does not mean a player (or a very lucky AI, maybe) cannot, through effort, turn the situation around and build their country to the point they can make use of this modifier - if they're lucky, maybe even before the Iberians, yes, but that is not what's expected to happen often, or easily.
 
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Portugal gets some things rather early on. Besides having the absolutely best geographical position, where they can be maybe an age ahead of France and England in reaching the americas and exploring africa, they get a unique advance in the renaissance that improved colonial range and their exploration speed.

Portugal is the country we use internally for "best country to test and try out exploration and colonisation".

Its also consistely on the top 5 of countries I like playing when I personally playtest. Currently right now I enjoy Norway, Portugal, Brittany, Oman and Serbia. Maybe its time to start a new Portugal game to test out this weeks changes.
Does this mean we will get some unique content and flavour for Serbia :D
 
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They were still going there : can recruit explorers yes
They have a history of expanding west and had a colony in Vinland : invite settlers yes
They are sailors : monthly naval +0.01
They were still going there : allow exploration yes (though what's the difference with having access to explorers ? Is it only for naval exploration ?)


Memes make fun games.


See first part of this message : they already know how to go oversea

What? Im sorry, but you either take their ability to explore seriously and argue for it seriously, or you think it's a fun meme and you don't, but not both. Please don't waste my time, I already have way more people pinging me on this topic than I'd like.

Again, this is all much better off modeled by giving them game-start knowledge of Canada's coast and a nice boon to sailing and artic settling, not by giving them the automatic ability to go down and discover the rest of the Eastern US Coast, too. Do what's best for Iceland.
 
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Then if they can't make good use of it in the game, then why not just let them have to use the tech tree like everyone else and give them something else better? :| Why give them the automatic check, if no one expects them to use it? Why not a naval tech boost to make them faster at researching exploration, than an immediate, game-start permission to do it?

See how this keeps going in circles? It's wanting this automatic check for the sake of wanting it, regardless if its appropriate or beneficial to Iceland.

I think its appropriate based on history and flavour while at the same time not really super beneficial because they will have an insanely hard time making use of it. Wouldnt it be wildly ahistorical to give them a tech boon? or exploration bonusses? were they better at it?

I agree it keeps going in circles. I just find the argument that its not appropriate to give a culture based on exploration and colonization such an access from the gamestart weird.
As from what i can see its not based in facts, its based in a belief that said access will mean that they will be able to make amazing benefit of this to produce ahistorical results. something which we have zero knowledge about but which all info we have points against.
 
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I think its appropriate based on history and flavour while at the same time not really super beneficial because they will have an insanely hard time making use of it. Wouldnt it be wildly ahistorical to give them a tech boon? or exploration bonusses? were they better at it?

I agree it keeps going in circles. I just find the argument that its not appropriate to give a culture based on exploration and colonization such an access from the gamestart weird.
As from what i can see its not based in facts, its based in a belief that said access will mean that they will be able to make amazing benefit of this to produce ahistorical results. something which we have zero knowledge about but which all info we have points against.

Okay, I can empathise with that perspective, even if I disagree with the game benefits it translates to. Do not take my arguing as hostility. Like I said from my starting post, I am vexed by the automatic check, more than anything else, and just think it should give them different boons.
 
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Then if they can't make good use of it in the game, then why not just let them have to use the tech tree like everyone else and give them something else better? :| Why give them the automatic check, if no one expects them to use it?
Because this game also has historical flavour, not just competitive buffs. All of this amounts to just flavour.
Why not a naval tech boost to make them faster at researching exploration, than an immediate, game-start permission to do it?
Because the flavor is that they used to have explorers sailing west, not that their shipbuilding technology developed quicker during the scope of the game. What you are suggesting here may actually be more useful than the ability to hire explorers, as it will make it easier for them to rush the tech that increases their range, given that Iceland will only be able to send their explorers with 14th century naval tech which will probably not get them far (if they can even afford a single exploration). This is not EU4. Anyway, Iceland will not be able to send their 14th century explorers to expeditions in the deep ocean routes in the Atlantic, but only around the Greenland coast.

And either way both Iceland and Greenland will get integrated by Norway in most games.

Edit: there actually was a short Tinto Talks dev diary about exploration. It shows how expensive these explorations are and that they can fail, with all progress being reset. Johan also mentioned in the comments that exploring Deep Ocean will require better naval tech. What "allowed to hire explorers" means is not that a colonization mechanic is unlocked for Iceland while it is locked for others: it means they can hire better characters to help with exploration. As Johan said in this thread, everyone can attempt to explore from day 1. So the bonus in Family Sagas is really not as significant as you seem to think.
Are we really having this massive discussion over Iceland's ability to bankrupt itself while attempting to explore a route to Nunavut, just to get annexed by Norway anyway?
 

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By the way, according to the sagas about the exploration of Leif Erikson, he discovered three areas in what is now Canada:
  1. Helleland, an inhospitable "land of flat stones" was the first area they got to from Greenland. That would be either Baffin Island in Nunavut or northern Labrador.
  2. Markland, a land full of forests that the Greenlanders kept sailing to for timber, is south of Helleland and as such is most likely in Labrador.
  3. Vinland, a lush area favored by the initial explorers for settlement, was eventually abandoned and was not reached by later expeditions as it is simply too far away for the sailing ships of that time. The Norse explored Newfoundland and possibly New Brunswick as well.
So Norse explorers sailed around Greenland and crossed the Labrador sea near the Davis Strait instead of sailing straight to Vinland, implying that this long route was taken because their ships were unfit for sailing in the deep Atlantic ocean:
9190.jpg


And guess what? That perfectly lines up with how oceans are made up in this game, with deep ocean routes across the Atlantic not being accessible until better ships are researched. Icelandic explorers would not be able to explore Deep Ocean tiles, but only Ocean ones, meaning that they would have to take the same route as Erikson did until they advance in tech:

North Atlantic.png


And again, this would be outrageously expensive for them and take very long to complete, with a big chance of failure (and the same goes for colonizing Greenland, which is arctic terrain). In the most ideal Iceland game ever, where you successfully break free from the Kalmar Union, steal Greenland from Norway and develop enough to finance early exploration and colonization you MIGHT get a couple locations in Vinland before everyone else. Until you get the proper advancements this whole process would simply be too costly to give you anything more.
 
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Portugal gets some things rather early on. Besides having the absolutely best geographical position, where they can be maybe an age ahead of France and England in reaching the americas and exploring africa, they get a unique advance in the renaissance that improved colonial range and their exploration speed.

Portugal is the country we use internally for "best country to test and try out exploration and colonisation".

Its also consistely on the top 5 of countries I like playing when I personally playtest. Currently right now I enjoy Norway, Portugal, Brittany, Oman and Serbia. Maybe its time to start a new Portugal game to test out this weeks changes.
can you try to make Portugal not too strong colonialwise? In the sense that the geographical vantage should be the main push towards colonization, not different unique government reforms that stack up to railroad in a direction. Like, for example, Florence was too considering the idea of a colony in America in the 17th century (see the Thornton expedition), and only a change in its leadership shifted its focus back to Mediterranean trade efforts.

Like, even though, obviously, Atlantic facing countries should have an headstart in the colonial effort please don't have them be the way to have colonies (as in to have in 50 years from 1492) all the continent claimed and with the coasts owned by England, France, Spain, Portugal and maybe either Norway or Frisia. It would be rather dull
 
We use estate preferences more for the various policies in the laws, as there are dozens up dozens of laws with different policies and thus makes for many interesting choices. When you have far fewer choices as the reforms are, then having estate preferences impacting them limits your choices much further making far more rigid metas/builds.
Maybe it would make sense to say that this is the case most of the time, but if an estate has a LOT of power and/or the country is in a crisis, the estate(s) are able to foment for larger change such as government reform.
 
It's not my argument, it's Sete's. But we know its a greater boon because Im sure it will be expected Portugal will have to go through the tech tree anyway to unlock exploration and invitation of settlers, because it's only natural and proper.



We don't know if Portugal would get it, but I wouldn't agree with giving Portugal the ability automaticaly, either. Portugal should go through the tech-tree, like everybody else. You're gonna find me to be extremely consistent on that front. No free abilities for anyone on exploration.



Honestly, I don't understand THIS argument. If you fail at something, why should you be acknowledged to be better at it than the average tag? :confused: Doesn't that ring even a little bit contradictory?

But I'll put that aside for the moment. No, it's not downplaying, it's simply acknowledging that there was no special, innate advantage towards exploration of the Americas from them over everyone else, much less one that should automatically unlock them the ability. They didn't build Navigation schools before everyone else, they didn't develop lateen sails and they didn't do the work to charting the new lands as consistent routes. Multiple nations have spotted new coasts by just virtue of venturing out to fish or running away from invaders. Hell, Portuguese fishermen were spotting the Azores island, but it wasn't until a dedicated mission to settle them ocurred that we all acknowledge that the islands were 'discovered'.

It just so happens that the lands in this case are the same that Columbus and Cabral and Americo went on to confirm to everyone "Hey, there's actually a really gigantic continent here. Boy, I wonder how no one realised it by now?"

Exploration is far more than just spotting new lands, it's also documenting them, marking them, writing down routes, etc. This isn't a strength not being acknowledged in the Icelandish, it's a heroic tale being converted into a technological advancement.

This is why me and another user suggested converting "Family Sagas" into a different, but still related benefit.

The Greenlanders didn't just get swept by the wind to Newfoundland a couple times by accident, neither were they simply spotting lands that they didn't mark or write down. The Norse explorers to the americas DID document the new lands, they talked about the resources to be found, the natives who lived there, the conflicts they had with those natives, they talked about the routes to get there, what time of year worked best, and about the different lands one would find on the way. And they used that knowledge to go there repeatedly, to gather lumber, and to try and settle on at least one occasion.

Also you keep repeating these factoids about how much the portuguese invested in navigation schools, lateen sails, and other sailing technologies, and that the Greenlanders shouldn't get that advantage because they didn't. The thing is they didn't NEED to invest in those things to sail to America, as they proved by sailing there multiple times without them.

The passage doesn't require those technologies that far north because you don't have to sail out into the deep ocean for a months long journey, they would sail up the coast of Greenland, cross over to Baffin Island, and then make their way down the coast. Your concerns about the needed technologies should apply to deep ocean travel, but the crossings that the Norse are known to made over 3 centuries before the start date should absolutely be plausible.

These historical facts in no way downplay Portugal's achievement, an achievement that the player will have to replicate on their own because it's an achievement that happened AFTER the start date.
 
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What I'm curious about is what "Can Invite Settlers" means. Seems to me like that is a mechanic unique to Iceland/Greenland, perhaps allowing them to attract migration of Nordic pops from other countries. @Johan can you elaborate, is that what it is? How strong is it? Can I exploit it to make Greenland have 1M pops?
 
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Portugal gets some things rather early on. Besides having the absolutely best geographical position, where they can be maybe an age ahead of France and England in reaching the americas and exploring africa, they get a unique advance in the renaissance that improved colonial range and their exploration speed.

Portugal is the country we use internally for "best country to test and try out exploration and colonisation".

Its also consistely on the top 5 of countries I like playing when I personally playtest. Currently right now I enjoy Norway, Portugal, Brittany, Oman and Serbia. Maybe its time to start a new Portugal game to test out this weeks changes.
What I’m curious about is Portugal’s ability to set up trade posts in Africa and India and the ability to historically repeat what the Portuguese did irl by expanding into the Indian Ocean early on, and get involved in wars there. Will this be possible with existing mechanics?
 
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This evidence is very still very weak to make the conclusion there was prior settlement. Mice might prove that Vikings landed in the region, but not settled, as there is no structures, no cattle, nothing that proves that there was settlement. After all, Vikings were more known for their raidings and not exatcly for their settlements (even if they did on some occasions)
 
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View attachment 1226108

I gotta say, I never know how to feel about this. On one hand I have to recognise that vikings did set foot in Canada. On the other, it frustrates me to see this being put on the same level of ability as Iberian explorations, mechanics-wise. Even if it's held back by population, it just always feels like an ahistorical leg-up.

I can already tell it's not going to be a popular comment to make, but I just think that if the Icelandic or Norweagian really were specially prepared to be part of the colonial powers more than, let's say, the Bretons or the Irish or the Scots, we would have seen major colonies in the game period, as opposed to the Americas' colonisation being utterly dominated by Iberians for almost a century.

Edit: I would be much more content if, instead of giving you exploration/settling bonuses, it gave you defence against native resistance on cold areas, for example, or a reduction of penalties from 'Artic' Climate on settling. In other words, some kind of hygienic advantage on specific areas the Nords would be better at settling. But not direct, general benefits befitting of early colonial empires that would apply just as well on Cuba, the Amazon, Australia and the Congo. That makes no sense to me.
This. It makes no sense that Iceland could use mechanics that potentially can lead to them knowing, or even settling all the American East Coast before the end of the 14th century.
 
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I think it makes a lot of sense for any isolated island country with a maritime stance, to have a bonus for exploration, especially if they historically actually DID do exploratory quests in the past not long before the time frame. Don't really understand why Iceland getting a slight bonus to this is controversial in here.

The reform says "can recruit explorers", the commenters understood it as "Iceland will be a colonial superpower by 1389"
 
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