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Tinto Talks #5 - March 27th, 2024

Welcome to the fifth Tinto Talks, where we talk about the design for our upcoming top secret game with the codename ‘Project Caesar.’


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The state is me! Oh, you meant E-state, sorry.. not me ..

Today we will go into detail about one of the core systems in the game, and talk about how estates work.

First of all, there are four estates in Project Caesar, which mostly map 1 to 1 with a social class: Nobility, Clergy, Burghers and the Commoners. There is also the Crown, which represents the state itself.

Each estate gains power based on the amount of population belonging to the estate, which is also modifiable by local attributes of where the population is, where some nobles may have very high power in a certain area, or whether a specific city has entrenched burgher rights there.

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This is the estates part of the government view, where you can see their power, current satisfaction, the equilibrium its trending toward, and what privileges it currently has.

Every 1,000 nobles gives +50 estate power to their estate, while 1,000 peasants merely give +0.05 estate power as default. Then these are modified locally in every location, as mentioned above, and then in the entire country by laws, reforms and most notably the privileges that you have given the estates.

The total power of all the 4 estates and the crown then together all add up to 100%, which is the effective power they have.

Depending on your crown power, you either get a scaling penalty or scaling bonus, on aspects like the cost of revoking estate privileges, the cost of changing policies in laws, the efficiency of the cabinet, the expected costs of the court, and other things. If your crown power is weak, you need to have the estates really satisfied, or you will not get much out of any parliament you try to call.

Each of the four estates has a current satisfaction and an equilibrium it will move towards. Some estates, and some countries, will have the estate satisfaction moving quicker to the equilibrium than others. Each estate has 2 factors per type of estate in which their satisfaction impacts the entire country, where satisfaction above 50% gives a scaling bonus, and below, a scaling penalty.

If the satisfaction is below 25%, this estate will not provide any levies. Most importantly, the estate satisfaction also impacts the satisfaction of the pops that belong to that estate, possibly creating rebel factions or even civil wars.
  • Nobility impacts your prestige gain and your counterespionage.
  • Clergy impacts your research speed and your diplomatic reputation.
  • Burghers impact your merchant power and the production efficiency.
  • Commoner impacts your food production and your stability costs.

So what impacts the satisfaction equilibrium of an estate? The privileges they get, the current stability, some reforms may impact them, some laws may, how you tax them, and much more. Some examples include clergy being happier with higher religious unity or burghers liking having more market centers in your country.

# estate privileges
Estate Privileges then? You may feel forced to grant privileges to estates to be able to tax them more, and you may be forced to grant privileges to get their support in parliament. All privileges impact the power of their estate, and many also increase their satisfaction equilibrium. They all have some impact on gameplay fitting the privilege, and often they also impact a societal value of their country.

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WiP ui, temporary graphics and no icons etc.

There are many different privileges, and many unique ones depending on where and what type of country you play.

We mentioned taxes before, and while this is not the development diary where we go into details about the economic system, it is important to mention that the estates of a country have wealth that is increased by the amount of money that you have not taken from them in taxes. Rich estates will use their wealth on many things, primarily to invest into things that benefit them, but will often also build things that also benefit the country.

Next week we will talk about a few new concepts that are rather new to this game that have not been present in previous games, as we will talk about proximity, control and maritime presence, all concepts that need to be talked about in detail, before we go into the economy system.
 
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Could we get the cheese / cake graph or something similar as well in the UI ?

It’s not really obvious at first sight who owns which share of the country, ie is the nobility really dangerous or are they right in check ?

Also, I expect a 20% nobility power would be way more dangerous than a 20% commoner, or can the threat be considered overall “equal” ?

equal
 
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If Estates gain enough power in a single Location can they split off as Autonomous regions? Ie if nobles get enough power they create a vassal state lead by their family, burghers create free cities, clergy bishoprics and the like?

Or possibly could it be a way to reduce an estates influence temporarily? In the short term they are happier with you and have less influence, but in the long term they have far more independence.
 
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Will there be a different name for "call parliament" mechanic between different government types, even if mechanically it's the same? It would sound weird if in a government system where there is no parliament, player would still have to call it.

they wont call it if they dont have it
 
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I noticed Epirus and Achaia are both a different purple. Does this mean they are subjects of the byzantines or is it just a coincidence?
 
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Okay so I'm assuming that different govenments are gonna play with the estates differently- like I would imagine tribal nations wouldn't have the same makeup of nobles, clergy, burghers and commoners. Maybe they get one estate 'tribes' like steppe hordes in EU4 did? And I'd prefer that honestly I feel that it would make playing different governments a lot more fun.

Similarly- I'd imagine different governments would empower certain estates over others. Republics would empower Burghers over Nobles, and Monarchies vice versa. If Pirate Republics and Peasant Republics are in the game (I hope they are) I would guess that they empower Commoners more than anything else. And naturally theocracies will empower the Clergy.

Also- I felt that the devs went a bit overboard in some places handing out new estates to different parts of the map, but I prefer that different parts of the map feel different. So I'm hoping certain regions or tech-groups will approach the estates differently. Like if Cossacks aren't their own Estate in Russia, I'd prefer that there's like a 'Cossack modifier' on one of them that makes you treat them differently than you do in other nations.

Also it'd be fun if dealing with the estates maybe lets you tune your army- say if you go all in on the nobility they hand out certain army bonuses, while doing so for the burghers or commoners would give you more manpower. Theocracies could empower the clergy all the way but maybe they only get their bonuses when fighting opposing religions. I'd assume that you'd probably want to round out privileges for rounded out benefits, but it'd be fun to see what overspecialization gets you.
 
They are most likely heathens and/or of a non-accepted culture, so they have no political power, so for this they have a much lower impact.
What about countries with two accepted religions/cultures. Would the clergy just join up and speak with one voice? No other intra country conflicts other than over social class, or will there be a different system for that?
 
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The Marmara and Halone islands should have been Byzantine possessions in 1337.
The islands should be connected to the province of Constantinople because they were conquered in 1453 by the Ottomans.

2962.png
 
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What are the odds we could have different coloring rules for small wastelands and large wastelands?

Basically, I’d personally like to have mountain ranges colored my color, but not vast swaths of desert.

Alternately, could the percentage of neighboring territory required to color in wasteland be raised? I have a pet peeve of mine from EU4: if I rule the Fertile Crescent, I control enough territory to color in the Syrian Desert. Which looks just awful on the map.

Reformation is a longer process and involved many more options along the centuries from Lollards and Hussites to Lutherans and Calvinists.

Here’s hoping we can squash them all w/o gutting Catholicism (ala EU4’s tendency to cause the Council of Trent to go quite screwy).
 
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Love the map, interesting its called Byzantine Empire not Byzantium, I hope naming will remain more consistent like it was on EU4.
Byzantium is usually the name used for the city, later known as Constantinople, not the Empire/country/whatever you want to call it. While the EU4 name may look better on the map, Byzantine Empire is a more accurate name (although not contemporary for the game's timeline).
 
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What about countries with two accepted religions/cultures. Would the clergy just join up and speak with one voice? No other intra country conflicts other than over social class, or will there be a different system for that?
I think this should be represented by some privileges to the clergy that give them increased tolerance for other religions. Similar to how they added a privilege for christian nations to add more tolerance to Orthodox. It would increase the Clergy's power relative to their population (as while they may not agree on doctrine, them having a live and let live policy would probably mean they support the dominant clergy to back up the status quo- the Orthodox populations supported the Ottomans since the Ottomans let the Patriarch of Constantinople stay for instance). That said- I imagine you might have to periodically deal with fundamentalist aspects of the clergy who want to repeal that privilege.

This'd also be a good excuse to let the USA keep Clergy as an estate. The Freedom of Religion in the Bill of Rights would manifest as a Clergy privilege that decreases their power and influence but lets you not give a crap about who is what religion in the country.
 
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they wont call it if they dont have it
Now is 'Parliament' here separate from 'Diet'? Or are you using them as bywords? And I ask that from both a historical perspective (France didn't have a Parliament, but the estates did force the King to call a Diet just before the French Revolution to deal with the debt and famine) and gameplay (Parliaments were one gameplay mechanic which were a seperate gameplay mechanic from calling Diets of your Estates)
 
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They are most likely heathens and/or of a non-accepted culture, so they have no political power, so for this they have a much lower impact.
If they are not represented as “estates”, how do you plan to represent janissaries / mamluks slaves ?

In their own time they managed to own the true political power over the Ottoman / Mamluk / Delhi state.
They did extract political rights or privileges from the sultans
 
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Also with estates having wealth is this just for buildings and the like or can they do more? Nobles building Castles and hiring mercs, burghers funding trade and colonization efforts that whilst under your country aren't directly controlled by you (East India Company).

Also would we be able to stop them building/ force them to pay for stuff?
 
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I think we have some rules for it, so when countries are smaller they get the shorter name..
They do, just on the map you have to fit the name as well.
Will certain decisions ingame influence longer names of countries?
Like for what's normally on map shown as "Bohemia" being "Kingdom of Bohemia" and potentially transforming into "Lands of the Bohemian Crown / Bohemian Crown"?
Or does Bohemia have no "longer name" and will be stuck as "Bohemia" the entire game unless it becomes revolutionary or something?
 
Now is 'Parliament' here separate from 'Diet'? Or are you using them as bywords? And I ask that from both a historical perspective (France didn't have a Parliament, but the estates did force the King to call a Diet just before the French Revolution to deal with the debt and famine) and gameplay (Parliaments were one gameplay mechanic which were a seperate gameplay mechanic from calling Diets of your Estates)
France did have a parliament. They actually even had 17 provincial ones under the Ancient Regime.
They were responsible for observing the respect and continuation of traditional custom laws in the provinces, which had each their own customs

Here the map before 1789, but some were created as early as the 15th century

1711556349775.png
 
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You've said the warfare will be units moving on a map like ck3 and eu4 which is great but I do think there is a major way to improve the system rather simply.

The current system doesn't allow for the player to have much control of maneuvering outside of deciding when and where to engage the enemy. The rest falls into stat modifiers, generals, and tech

In order to better simulate many great battles in history, it would be nice to add in the potential for flanking and enveloping maneuvers. Currently a significant portion of the game is sending death stacks into eachother. But what if i send a stack of 15k north one location into battle against a stack of 30k, and then send another stack of 5-10k into battle from behind the enemies line?
Instead of having them just join your main army it would be really cool to see it represented as an envelopment, maybe the enemy stack splits in half facing each of ur stacks and you get a bonus to rolls for flanking or enveloping the enemy.

Something to give the player a little bit more control of battlefield maneuvering would be nice because as it stands it feels more like I just have to min-max stat modifiers and not attack in the mountains which is fine but its not as in depth of a battle simulation.

This may be a lot to ask I'm not a programmer or game ai designer but I think it would really set this game over any strategy game thats come before.
 
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