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Tinto Talks #55 - 19th of March 2025

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we give you information about our rather secret game with the Codename Project Caesar, so that we can get feedback to improve the game before launch.

As we mentioned last week, we are spending four weeks going through how your feedback together with internal testing have shaped the game in this last year. Today it is time to talk about the changes that are related to the political part of the game.

Estate Power
The power of the estates is one of the most important aspects of the core game loops of Project Caesar, so much so that we had to rearrange what we show in the top bar in the UI. We added so you can easily see each estate's current power and satisfaction, without having to go into a special screen.

As part of the gameplay loop is about breaking the power of the estates and strengthening the central state as you shape a modern country, basing the core power of the estates to how many pops they had made a gameplay where urbanizing and developing your country would weaken the central government.

The main change is that the amount of pops of a certain estate impact their power, but also impact the crown power with the same base value, before any privileges or laws give more power to the estate. This makes the relative power distribution between the estates feel logical, but the weakening of the crown is due to the privileges granted. This further ties in with advances increasing crown power and the increase of absolutism in later ages.

nobles.png

It's just a cost of a few hundred of stability to remove all those privileges. And maybe not give that noble with insane stats command over the army.. And go more plutocratic? Then we can reduce their power below 30%.. But the +0.17 military tactics is good… tough choices..


As characters all have an estate they belong to, it’s now also added in that giving characters command of armies or navies, or a place in the cabinet increases the power of the estate they belong to. A total of 25% for armies, 25% from navies and 25% from cabinet positions can be added.

Connected to this, the direct family of the ruler is now always considered to be part of the crown estate, so if you want to strengthen the crown you may want to risk them commanding armies.


55_crown_estate.png

Having a crown prince in the cabinet helps a bit..


Parliament
When it comes to the parliament we keep adding new agendas and issues from feedback and internal testing, but some important changes that come from you guys include the following.

First of all, we added the Dutch-style parliament with only nobles and burghers, which you currently have access to if you have the Low Franconian culture.

We also made it so that if you keep giving out the unique privileges for the nobles in Poland, you will end up in a situation where you need 100% of the support to pass anything in the parliament.

We also added a building that was requested by the community, which is available through an advance in the Age of Discovery.

parliament.png

Could be useful…


Societal Values & Government Reforms
While we were happy with how societal values were indirectly influenced by laws & privileges, they had the problem that eventually anything with a drift towards one direction would eventually get to the extreme. Now one could change this by lowering the amount it would drift, but that would make for rather dull gameplay, and eventually you’d get to extremes anyway.

So what we did instead was to make a sort of soft-cap for how far a value could drift, at 100 times the current drift. So if you manage to stack up to +0.75 monthly towards Naval then you could get the values all the way to 75 Naval before it stopped there. If you’d drop to less than +0.75 naval, you’d still be at 75 naval though, as you’d not progress to the other side until you get all the way to at least +0.01 to land! This has the added benefit of you being able to shape your country how you want over a longer period of time, and even if you want to be a humanist country, you may not get further than a 65 on that slider, as you may not be willing to give up other aspects.

towards_capital.png

If we increase our trade income, we can push it even further..



While working on adding content this year, we added government reforms to every age, and while doing so, we decided to tie some of them to societal values. So now about half of the government reforms that are available to every country require that a specific societal value at least 50 to be selectable, and if you drop below that, you’d lose the reform. Some examples include that Religious Tolerance requires a country to be Humanist, while Bank Ledgers requires a country to have a Capital Economy.


Proximity and Control
The proximity and control gameplay loop is one of the most beloved by our playtesting, and it has been tweaked a fair bit during the last year, so as to make it feel more natural.

Proximity now traces along rivers, where it's even easier to propagate proximity and market access downstream.

proximity.png
And where in the world are we now?


The buildings that act as proximity sources besides the capital, like the Bailiff, have been made a bit more powerful, but also far more costly.

We also changed how roads are built, slowing them down by 50% as default, and rugged terrain like Mountains makes road-building far slower. I guess the rest of the team did not like my Nidaros-Oslo highway..

We also tweaked how Maritime Presence works, with adding a decay to the current value, so that unless you invest in naval infrastructure and/or a navy, your control propagation over coastal seazones is limited.

We improved the impact from some buildings, and navies now also increase maritime presence in every seazone in the “seazone” province they are currently in. There is also an objective you can assign to navies to patrol any area/province you want and it will move around increasing your maritime presence.


presence.png

A single galley does not provide much presence i guess…


Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about changes to Diplomacy and Military…
 
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Odd one here. Some general questions, some UI questions
  • Does these changes mean that without modifiers (privileges, laws, buildings) that you would be sitting at 50% crown power since pops give the same weight to 'crown' as their own estate?
  • So raw power / nobles is 40, not sure what that has to do with the +345%. Do these not fully correlate because of local modifiers are not represented?
nobles.png


  • Is there a reason you used the 'pop' icon instead of the word here? You used the word in the Noble power one
  • so family are worth half the value of other characters? or do family members give half value to the state and the other half to the 'estate' as every characters have an estate the belong to.
  • Can characters (including non family members) belong to the state instead of an estate? Why not?
  • Don't like the colored triangle representing the estates collectively, though like it better than it representing the pop-types collectively as shown last week.
55_crown_estate.png


  • pop-type line is busy
    • move the age icon to right side of title bar as seen in advance tooltips
    • change the subtype banner to words and place it after the subtitle thusly "Building Type | State" as seen in unit type tooltips
  • why is the power icon modifiers (lower right on icon) different than the power base icon?
  • What are the effects of Permanent Parliament? Always in session? or always in this location? If it is the latter then we might need to change the wording to indicate it.
  • Are requirements for construction a one time cost or periodic (monthly?) during construction?
  • Is there a reason we use goods tiles for production methods but goods lists for requirements?
  • Do I still have to pay the production method if the building is not in the capital?
parliament.png


  • The 'softcap' method shows promise but does make small increments in the opposite direction feel less impactful. (If I am sitting at 0.5 -> and get a 0.1 <-, there is likely no effect on my current value).
  • near zero should not just be the lack of penalties as so far the bonuses for the ends are better than the penalties. Have you thought of overlapping the 'zones' where the old effects went from +100 to 0, instead have them go from +100 to -25. This way zero gets a little of both while moving away from zero removes reduces one of the effect while increasing the other until it gets to 25 where on is gone while the other continues to grow?
    • 100L = 5/5 left effects 0/5 right effects
    • 25L = 2/5 left effects 0/5 right effects
    • 0 = 1/5 left effects 1/5 right effects
    • 25LR= 0/5 left effects 2/5 right effects
    • 100R= 0/5 left effects 5/5 right effects
  • The verbiage of "Changes with + 0.10 ..." is awkward; maybe "Monthly change of 0.10 towards Capital Economy is due to:" instead
  • How are you going to handle if you have some monthly effects pulling the opposite direction?
    • perhaps list +0.05 Capital Economy and +0.01 Traditional Economy?
towards_capital.png


  • What is the need for two icons that look the same in the title block? I prefer the left one and its location.
  • Can we use the minus symbol instead of a dash? it is noticeably off with the kerning and height and size
  • In the base tooltip here I don't think color coding is beneficial
  • What is the CTRL key icon for?
  • I think that the wording needs work.
    • In the sub-tooltip is it really the "distance cost to capital through land" or distance from Solt to Kalocsa?
      • "Distance" or "Distance between Solt and Kalocsa" is more accurate?
      • "Along river" or "Downstream along a river"
    • Is the wetlands and development Solt or Kalocsa? both? either?
  • looking at this it appears to pick a path and then adjust for river. Will this be able to determine if a longer path along a river is better than a shorter path? Is the proximity data determined iteratively?
proximity.png


  • As the final result is X.XX can the parts that are listed as "due to:" show an extra digit X.XXX. This will reduce appearance of bad math. Currently the sum or the parts is -0.11 the total indicated is -0.09.
  • Please do not have a separate 'patrol for presence' and 'patrol for pirates' objectives.
presence.png


Thanks for reading.
 
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So what we did instead was to make a sort of soft-cap for how far a value could drift, at 100 times the current drift. So if you manage to stack up to +0.75 monthly towards Naval then you could get the values all the way to 75 Naval before it stopped there. If you’d drop to less than +0.75 naval, you’d still be at 75 naval though, as you’d not progress to the other side until you get all the way to at least +0.01 to land!
If anything, this means that the societal values are even more inclined to be at their extremes (as in maximum possible position), as a result making the nations less customisable
 
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Why did you remove colourful ornaments in ui? I think they were quit good. I see that the text for estate satisfaction blends in in some cases. Have you tried changing colour of text?
1742411578078.png
 
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I might be misunderstanding this, but surely if you went from +0.50 to +0.49 that would also do it, because your new 'cap' is 49
As stated in the main post, being over the cap doesn’t cause you to drift downward to your new cap. You only drift towards zero if the drift value is on the other side of zero than your current value.
 
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I personally like the idea of a soft cap to societal values, but I don't like the way you did it. I think there should be a natural decay the higher the value is. Everything would work the way you outlined, so if you have a push of 0,75 towards naval, you'd increase slowly to 75 until decay stops it there. But if you drop to 0,65 towards naval it would naturally decay to 65 again. Otherwise, a situation I could think of (theoretically) is, that I give some priviledges that increase the push towards a value that I like, but have some sort of drawback. Keep them until it's at 75 or whatever, then I simply revoke these priviledges, keep a measly 0,01 push towards the value and I stay at 75 with no drawbacks, for some reason.

If there is no big push towards aristocracy in my country, why would it naturally stay at 75 aristrocracy, if at one point we had 0.75 push for it, and then support for it declined greatly?
 
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"A total of 25% for armies, 25% from navies and 25% from cabinet positions can be added."

Not sure if this was brought up before, but I think this sort of system is going to be very easy to exploit if the influence does not scale with the size of army/navy/cabinet position. It would be better to have influence proportional to the percentage of the total army/navy the general/admiral will control. And the cabinet position should be proportional to the amount of political influence it holds.

If something is exploitable it takes away from any enjoyment of the system even if you don't use the exploit - because half of the enjoyment comes from using a system well. And you can't feel that you are doing something well if there is an exploit to do it better...

Just look at a certain other game set in the 19th-20th century, where years after release every single decently experienced lets-play of the game is basically a string of exploits stitched together.
 
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One thing I liked about Imperator Rome was that giving disloyal characters control of armies was risky. Would a general from an angry estate present a risk of wielding part of the army against the central government? Such events were very common and I found keeping the military loyal in I:R added a layer of realism and fun at the same time.

(Sometimes the I:R family expectation system was hard to manage though)
 
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Seems like it will be possible to trigger a specific sort of revolution by giving out all of the positions it is possible to give out to a specific faction, then provoking them to launch a revolt by trying to revoke privileges.

I am not saying this is bad. Such a thing can be fun. But if there is a specific meta government form or faction for the player to empower, won't everyone just do this?

Could there be a system where appointing someone to a cabinet/fleet/army would trigger a reaction from the factions that didn't get one of their own appointed? Where as opposed to just a shift in influence or a slow drift, rival factions would immediately dislike it if you promoted someone that's not a landed noble to lead the biggest army?

Again, there is a certain game set in the 19th-20th century where it is now the default playstyle to simply hire and promote generals from your desired faction to boost influence, with no consequences from the other factions.
 
First of all, we added the Dutch-style parliament with only nobles and burghers, which you currently have access to if you have the Low Franconian culture.
Why don't you make parliaments modular, rather than making so many bespoke versions?
 
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Based on the image I was hoping we would talk more about pirates- with the ability for 'pirate havens' to pop up on the map that spawn pirate ships. Maybe later.

On the topic of rivers allowing for more control- I wonder if other types of water ways are considered? Lakes for instance- an inland lake like Lake Victoria or Lake Eerie would help with the speed of delivering communications since boats are faster than land travel. I suppose it should be calculated the same way that regular coastlines do.

I don't know if some sort of 'flood plains' mechanic has been added, but they can be used to build waterways that could also help in communication. That said with them being connected to rivers, I don't know if it would add much. Ideally I think it'd be a modifier on certain rivers like the Nile that maybe adds an increase to the bonus to control.

Lastly- I wonder if swamps could also increase control. While few people lived in swamps, you can take small boats through them which helps in relaying orders. I think it should at least be considered.

I also wonder how Canals will work in Project Caesar, but they should also help with control.
 
both ways, but downstream is better
That doesn’t make sense. As you described it control is about the ability to transport goods (taxes) to the capital, meaning if anything you want the capital to be downstream of a location. Really though it shouldn’t matter since everything has to go both ways, meaning the benefits of being downstream are canceled out by the return trip and vice versa.
 
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+1 vote against current version of values’ cap

Absence of natural decay to zero looks really gamey, I am already seeing future exploiting guides: «enact these privileges and these policies, wait ~30 years for desirable numbers, than revoke all, maybe even enact some new and contrary policies/privileges»

This is shaping of your country, but not natural one. It’s not simulation of real world, where society changes everyday, not only when drift to market economy will completely overcome drift to traditional (and not today drift, but 200 years ago drift)

Probably, there is good analogy in diplomacy. Player can’t and shouldn’t get ideal eternal relations with some country just because of marriages and gifts in some moment of their history. Opinions about each other must start to decay not in the moment of war declaration, but already when rulers forget about old gifts
 
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...Proximity now traces along rivers, where it's even easier to propagate proximity and market access downstream...
<->
it's so realistic and makes a lot of sense. Rivers were literally the highways of the past, and the idea that they should have more influence on market access just feels right. It just feels like a better reflection of how things actually worked, with rivers shaping economies and cities.
and
Rivers need to boost the proximity factor a lot more.


It’s genuinely fascinating to see something I had in mind actually becoming part of the game. Really appreciate it, that was spot on!
 
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and navies now also increase maritime presence in every seazone in the “seazone” province they are currently in. There is also an objective you can assign to navies to patrol any area/province you want and it will move around increasing your maritime presence.
<->
I’d also add an advance that gives a territorial proximity bonus when your fleet is docked or passing through, maybe even an event for rebel suppression.
ut as the centuries roll on and everything gets more connected, both the army and navy end up being way more influential than just local control, proximity.

Big thanks! It’s honestly brilliant to see some of the ideas I had in mind actually making their way into the game.

The naval changes are great and really add depth. But shouldn’t fleets have some proximity effect while passing through an area too, not just when docked? After all, wouldn’t the movement of a fleet also influence local control, even if temporarily?

And what about armies? If they’re stationed or moving through a region-location, shouldn’t they also give a bit of proximity effect to nearby areas?


If that’s not possible, no worries—the system is already very realistic. Just wanted to share my thoughts.

Regards.
 
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