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Tinto Talks #55 - 19th of March 2025

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we give you information about our rather secret game with the Codename Project Caesar, so that we can get feedback to improve the game before launch.

As we mentioned last week, we are spending four weeks going through how your feedback together with internal testing have shaped the game in this last year. Today it is time to talk about the changes that are related to the political part of the game.

Estate Power
The power of the estates is one of the most important aspects of the core game loops of Project Caesar, so much so that we had to rearrange what we show in the top bar in the UI. We added so you can easily see each estate's current power and satisfaction, without having to go into a special screen.

As part of the gameplay loop is about breaking the power of the estates and strengthening the central state as you shape a modern country, basing the core power of the estates to how many pops they had made a gameplay where urbanizing and developing your country would weaken the central government.

The main change is that the amount of pops of a certain estate impact their power, but also impact the crown power with the same base value, before any privileges or laws give more power to the estate. This makes the relative power distribution between the estates feel logical, but the weakening of the crown is due to the privileges granted. This further ties in with advances increasing crown power and the increase of absolutism in later ages.

nobles.png

It's just a cost of a few hundred of stability to remove all those privileges. And maybe not give that noble with insane stats command over the army.. And go more plutocratic? Then we can reduce their power below 30%.. But the +0.17 military tactics is good… tough choices..


As characters all have an estate they belong to, it’s now also added in that giving characters command of armies or navies, or a place in the cabinet increases the power of the estate they belong to. A total of 25% for armies, 25% from navies and 25% from cabinet positions can be added.

Connected to this, the direct family of the ruler is now always considered to be part of the crown estate, so if you want to strengthen the crown you may want to risk them commanding armies.


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Having a crown prince in the cabinet helps a bit..


Parliament
When it comes to the parliament we keep adding new agendas and issues from feedback and internal testing, but some important changes that come from you guys include the following.

First of all, we added the Dutch-style parliament with only nobles and burghers, which you currently have access to if you have the Low Franconian culture.

We also made it so that if you keep giving out the unique privileges for the nobles in Poland, you will end up in a situation where you need 100% of the support to pass anything in the parliament.

We also added a building that was requested by the community, which is available through an advance in the Age of Discovery.

parliament.png

Could be useful…


Societal Values & Government Reforms
While we were happy with how societal values were indirectly influenced by laws & privileges, they had the problem that eventually anything with a drift towards one direction would eventually get to the extreme. Now one could change this by lowering the amount it would drift, but that would make for rather dull gameplay, and eventually you’d get to extremes anyway.

So what we did instead was to make a sort of soft-cap for how far a value could drift, at 100 times the current drift. So if you manage to stack up to +0.75 monthly towards Naval then you could get the values all the way to 75 Naval before it stopped there. If you’d drop to less than +0.75 naval, you’d still be at 75 naval though, as you’d not progress to the other side until you get all the way to at least +0.01 to land! This has the added benefit of you being able to shape your country how you want over a longer period of time, and even if you want to be a humanist country, you may not get further than a 65 on that slider, as you may not be willing to give up other aspects.

towards_capital.png

If we increase our trade income, we can push it even further..



While working on adding content this year, we added government reforms to every age, and while doing so, we decided to tie some of them to societal values. So now about half of the government reforms that are available to every country require that a specific societal value at least 50 to be selectable, and if you drop below that, you’d lose the reform. Some examples include that Religious Tolerance requires a country to be Humanist, while Bank Ledgers requires a country to have a Capital Economy.


Proximity and Control
The proximity and control gameplay loop is one of the most beloved by our playtesting, and it has been tweaked a fair bit during the last year, so as to make it feel more natural.

Proximity now traces along rivers, where it's even easier to propagate proximity and market access downstream.

proximity.png
And where in the world are we now?


The buildings that act as proximity sources besides the capital, like the Bailiff, have been made a bit more powerful, but also far more costly.

We also changed how roads are built, slowing them down by 50% as default, and rugged terrain like Mountains makes road-building far slower. I guess the rest of the team did not like my Nidaros-Oslo highway..

We also tweaked how Maritime Presence works, with adding a decay to the current value, so that unless you invest in naval infrastructure and/or a navy, your control propagation over coastal seazones is limited.

We improved the impact from some buildings, and navies now also increase maritime presence in every seazone in the “seazone” province they are currently in. There is also an objective you can assign to navies to patrol any area/province you want and it will move around increasing your maritime presence.


presence.png

A single galley does not provide much presence i guess…


Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about changes to Diplomacy and Military…
 
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Why did you remove colourful ornaments in ui? I think they were quit good. I see that the text for estate satisfaction blends in in some cases. Have you tried changing colour of text?
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I find it very strange and concerning how the visuals/UI get progressively worse in some aspects. For example, pop icons used to be better too, much more distinct and clear, before they were replaced by white humans in clothes that are mostly various shades of brown. And trade map mode looked fantastic with the black background color, but then was replaced with blue/brown.

I really hope they're just experimenting with things and will eventually settle on the best options.
 
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About road-building and other public works, I hope centralizing your Empire comes with hefty bonuses to build speed for roads and monuments. There are plenty of examples to look at: the Romans, the Incas, and basically any large absolutist country in Europe are known for great works of infrastructure.
 
I already can imagine spamming navies in the 1500s to take the control of the New World trade, it's really cool

I hope it will impact the colonizing countries enough to be a real competition, and maybe some things about the golden age of piracy
 
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Does the game represent better proximity propagation over rivers that are more navigable? For example, take the Nile. Up to the cataracts, very navigable. Beyond the cataracts, less so. In the Sudan, virtually unnavigable.
Navigability of river as values for connection between two locations (like road) would probably be a good idea. Two values for up and downstream direction.
 
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Wouldn't it be more simple and straightforward to have a decay towards the middle?
The effect is still the same, so if you have +0.75 to one side, you won't be able to go past 75 because the decay at that value is -0.75.
But if you get, say, +5 by event (going to 80), the decay will then be -0.8, so it'll drift back towards 75.
And if you get -5, (going to 70), the decay will now be -0.7, which will make you drift back to 75 as well.
This all would make it so these modifiers drag the resting point towards the desired value in a natural way, without some external "ceiling" modifier.
Maybe a potential way make staying near the middle is to have different scaling for positive and negative modifiers. With the negative modifiers really sucks on the extreme.
 
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once again saying a humanist to religious slider is plain wrong : most of the most famous humanist works (and Reinassance as a whole) was financiated by the clergy and the papal states, yet I'd reckon that the papal states belong into "religious" and not humanist.

Can we please, please rename humanist with anything else?
Religious vs Secular?
 
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Adding my voice to the people saying there shouldn't be a big difference between upstream and downstream control propagation. Controlling something always requires two way communication.
 
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The naval changes are great and really add depth. But shouldn’t fleets have some proximity effect while passing through an area too, not just when docked? After all, wouldn’t the movement of a fleet also influence local control, even if temporarily?
I don't know where you get the idea that they only affect proximity while docked:
We also tweaked how Maritime Presence works, with adding a decay to the current value, so that unless you invest in naval infrastructure and/or a navy, your control propagation over coastal seazones is limited.

We improved the impact from some buildings, and navies now also increase maritime presence in every seazone in the “seazone” province they are currently in. There is also an objective you can assign to navies to patrol any area/province you want and it will move around increasing your maritime presence.


And what about armies? If they’re stationed or moving through a region-location, shouldn’t they also give a bit of proximity effect to nearby areas?
Why? Proximity is distance to capital. How does a stationed army reduce that distance? The best I can think of is that they might help build roads, but then that should be the benefit, not that they directly increase proximity. Another thought is that they make it safer to travel by dissuading banditry, but then that should be the benefit - unrest or whatever stat best represents lawlessness should be reduced. More likely it should just increase control to some degree.
 
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Why? Proximity is distance to capital. How does a stationed army reduce that distance? The best I can think of is that they might help build roads, but then that should be the benefit, not that they directly increase proximity. Another thought is that they make it safer to travel by dissuading banditry, but then that should be the benefit - unrest or whatever stat best represents lawlessness should be reduced. More likely it should just increase control to some degree.
with the proximity thing—think about the benefits.

If an army’s stationed or moving through an area, people in nearby regions would probably (and realistically, unless they're republican rebels against a monarch) feel a lot more "connected" to the capital, or at least safer and more in control, right? It’s like they’re closer to it. Yeah, I mean the capital.

This could help with control and even reduce banditry, since the army’s presence might discourage crime or unrest. Not bad, right?
Surely, The exception being if they’re republican rebels against a monarch.

So, why wouldn’t that impact proximity? I’d love to hear you, so I can reassess my idea or maybe tweak it to make it more realistic and reasonable.



I don't know where you get the idea that they only affect proximity while docked:
I’m not sure if I got it right, but could you explain a bit more about what you meant by "they only affect proximity while docked"? Did I miss something in the dev diary? I’m a bit confused, so if you wouldn’t mind clearing it up, I’d really appreciate it!
 
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If an army’s stationed or moving through an area, people in nearby regions would probably (and realistically, unless they're republican rebels against a monarch) feel a lot more "connected" to the capital, or at least safer and more in control, right? It’s like they’re closer to it. Yeah, I mean the capital.

This could help with control and even reduce banditry, since the army’s presence might discourage crime or unrest. Not bad, right?
Surely, The exception being if they’re republican rebels against a monarch.

So, why wouldn’t that impact proximity? I’d love to hear you, so I can reassess my idea or maybe tweak it to make it more realistic and reasonable.
None of what you've said seems to me like an army should affect proximity. Feeling more connected to the capital should not make goods travel further in the same timeframe, and spread your market further. Having an army control banditry should reduce unrest and/or increase control, not proximity.
I’m not sure if I got it right, but could you explain a bit more about what you meant by "they only affect proximity while docked"? Did I miss something in the dev diary? I’m a bit confused, so if you wouldn’t mind clearing it up, I’d really appreciate it!
Double check your earlier message, I was responding to what you said about navies only affecting maritime presence while docked, which they do not. What you were asking for, having moving navies affect it is already accounted for, per the main post.
 
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As many others are saying, it’s weird to have societal values drift at a constant speed for a hundred months and then suddenly halt on a dime, and not drift back *at all* unless you lose every single one of the modifiers that had been pushing you that way.

Much more natural to just say societal values drift 1% towards zero on every turn, automatically meaning that the total rate of progress from other modifiers is 1% of the equilibrium, but drifting slowly towards it after even a small bump upwards or downwards, rather than staying high.

(Also, in EUIV I never understood why some things like prestige and tradition work by changing a directional push that fights a decay to produce an equilibrium, while other things like estate satisfaction work by stating an equilibrium and drifting towards that. It seems like both should have been done the same way.)

I also want to register my confusion about why rivers work differently in different directions - that makes sense for goods shipments, but not for control propagation. It would be really weird if it’s harder to control Baghdad from a capital in Basra than to control Basra from a capital in Baghdad, or vice versa. (Also, I can’t tell from the way it was phrased which direction it was meant to be.)
 
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This;

Looks significantly less "good" than the update to the UI that we were teased with here;

Is that just a case of different branches being used to test different things and then the prettier UI and mechanics will merge at the end?

Its supposed to be colored yes, we just got new backgrounds in ui that has not got colors yet
 
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You talk about changes made based on feedback, but you appear to have ignored the feedback regarding the mislabeling of this societal value. Why?
Humanism in this time period has nothing to do with religious tolerance - in fact, almost all the famous humanists were clergymen, like Enea Silvio Bartolomeo Piccolomini, i.e. Pope Pius II.

Everyone who knows anything about humanism in this game's time period will be confused or annoyed, and what are you going to do about all the narrative content about humanism? It clashes with your modern use of the word...
Could be a legacy thing, like RGO. Though I agree that renaming it to Tolerance would be a harmless change.

Why yes, I do play Anbennar a lot, how did you know?
 
Do you though? The Tinto Flavors have shown events which jump you X amount while simultaneously enacting policies which make you go in the opposite direction, essentially slowing your rate, and thereby lowering your theoretical cap. If you have a rate of +0.20 and are at 60, but an event jumps you -20 and implements a policy slowing your rate to +0.15, that means that you are now at 40 with a cap of 15. So still above the cap but no chance whatsoever to get back above 50., meaning you lose access to a reform you had pretty much permanently, unless you go out of your way to get your rate up to +0.50. I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, but have you kept this in mind when you are working on country setups and flavors?
My guess is that the 50+ societal value reforms require quite a bit of commitment towards their societal value to keep active, which might be fine.

It does restrict event outcomes a bit, in the sense that events would probably always need to have an option of not taking the -20 option for this to work though.

I like the system in theory though, seems to have a lot of potential.
 
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Have the values we've been shown seen large reworks? I hope the penalties are more significant, now. The negatives seemed extremely tame for most of the societal values, before, even at 100% - Not nearly enough to make me pause before pursuing the positives at the extremes of the spectrum given how linear they were. Perhaps they were much more debilitating than they seemed in actual gameplay.
The ideal version of this IMO would be additional penalties when nearing the extremes of each value. Maybe a bigger negative starting at +-50%, which would combo nicely with the new gov. reform threshold being 50% as well.

0% should have a small buff though. I think that going towards either extreme should be more rewarding than staying at 0% though, as you're investing resources towards going to extremes, whereas the 0% point seems easier to reach.
 
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