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Tinto Talks #59 - 16th of April 2025

Hello and welcome once again to our super secret Project Caesar Tinto Talks. I will be your host this time, where we will be talking about the mechanics of Catholicism and its associated Catholic Church International Organization.

Here’s an overview of the religion itself:
Catholicism Tooltip.png


One thing to highlight here besides all the other effects, is that Catholic countries are not able to tax their clergy at all by default, although there may be other things modifying this on top of it. However, the clergy won’t necessarily swim in money, as that has to be instead paid to the Papacy directly in the form of a tithe.
Tithe.png


Another key aspect of Catholicism is that all Catholic countries will belong to the Catholic Church IO:
Catholic Church Map.png

Catholic Church IO pannel.png


You can see here that there are quite many countries belonging to it (the total list is expandable and scrollable), with some of them having some special statuses. For Bishopric and Military Order these are self-explanatory, but the Curia and Cardinals need some more information.

The decisions concerning the Catholic Church are taken by the Curia, which is composed of Cardinals. In Project Caesar, Cardinals are represented by a special building, called Cardinal Seat, available to be built by Catholic countries higher than county rank in any location where they already own a large religious building. Each Cardinal Seat will grant its owner country a Cardinal, which the country can use to influence the decisions of the Curia (more on that later). Countries can have more than one Cardinal Seat and thus more than one Cardinal, that’s why in the panel you can see that there’s 7 countries in the Curia but a total of 16 Cardinals among them.
Cardinal Seat.png


Another aspect of the Catholic Church IO is its doctrines, represented by a set of laws. These laws are not something that’s easily changed, as it’s what defines the core values of Catholicism, but some important events will be able to shape them, like for example the Council of Trent (more on that in future Tinto Talks). Here are some of these laws effects:
Papal Authority.png

Purchase of Indulgence.png

Marriage of Priests.png

Persecution of Witchcraft.png


Next to the Doctrines, we have the Papal Bulls. These are actions that any Catholic country can choose to propose, but only those in the Curia can vote on whether to pass them or refuse them. Here are the possible bulls with some examples:
Papal Bulls.png

Illius Qui Se Pro Divini.png

In Coena Domini.png


When voting on a Papal Bull, the interface changes slightly to show how many cardinals support each option. It goes without saying that all the cardinals that a country has will be assigned to vote for the same option, so the amount of cardinals a country has is effectively its amount of votes.
Papal Bulls Vote.png


Besides the Papal Bulls, there’s also the action of Excommunication, available to all countries of the Curia, that if approved, will get the excommunicated country some very nasty modifiers and allow for a special casus belli.

Excommunication Effects.png


The Catholic Church also has some extra aspects in the form of Saints and Holy Sites. Saints are characters of a country that have been elevated to sainthood. A country can choose to canonize any of its previous rulers, and they will get benefits depending on the abilities of such character. Holy Sites are special locations to the Catholic faith, giving some extra income to their owner due to the affluence of faithful in them.
Saints.png

Holy Sites.png


Outside the Catholic Church per se and instead in the main religion panel, there are some extra religious actions available to certain countries, besides the already mentioned option to canonize a character.
Religious Actions.png


  • Demand Apostolic Tax is an action exclusive to the Papacy, in which they will demand extra payment from those countries with the Apostolic Tax privilege enabled.
  • Request Aid is an action exclusive to the military orders, in which they can ask to petition support to the Pope for their infrastructure, military, or coffers.
  • Placitum Regium is an action available to kingdoms or empires that gives them some extra crown power at the expense of relations with the Papacy.

One last thing to mention here is that, as you can see, Catholicism also has Reform Desire. However, in contrast to some other of our titles that also present this value, here it is not a ticking clock for the Reformation, but instead something that will come into play in the Council of Trent. As such, you will have to wait a bit for a further explanation on it.

And that is all for today, next week we will resolve these cliffhangers by taking a further look at what Catholicism has in store after the start of the game, including the situations of the Western Schism, Reformation, and the Council of Trent. On the other hand, in this week’s Tinto Flavor we will go directly to the head of Catholicism by taking a look at the flavor content for the Papal States. Also, remember that this week’s Tinto Flavour will be on Thursday, as this week is Good Friday and the Papal States would be too busy to attend their own Tinto Flavor then (oh, and it’s also a holiday).

See you next time!
 
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I wonder how you enter and leave the Church.
By the big doors on the front. ;) I would assume that every country that is catholic is part of the IO (even the excommunicated ones)

Hang on - am I crazy, or does the Catholic Church IO not have the "International Organization" subtitle? Can I finally get off my hill? Is my battle won? Or is it just not present in that particular screenshot?
They didn't show the tooltip, just the panel. It hasn't been on the panel.
 
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I'd like to suggest you to add another military order, Order of Dobrzyń/ Brothers of Dobrzyń through some flavour event maybe? because last mention of them is from 1248 but there is no news about how they ended because not all of them joined Teutonic Order. Canonically order ended in 1350s. So you see there's a room for cool event for Catholic Poland.


View attachment 1282031
They were not respected in the Teutonic Order, and in the Prussian Chronicle of Dusburg they are directly ridiculed for their inability to defend the Kulm land from the "two Prussians".
 
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Is the ban on empires only a thing until the Age of Absolutism or of Revolutions? Think of the French Empire forming.
A true absolutistic Monarch does not care about restrictions by the Pope.
As long as the ban is lifted once the hre stops existing napoleon's french Empire can still be simulated.
 
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Crusades are normally called by the Pope.
If that is
There are currently no requirements, as we decided to abstract the process. Countries didn't always follow the papal procedures before they started venerating their past rulers as saints, and saints are not exclusive to Catholicism (and thus tied to the Pope) anyway.
If that is tbe justification, then I suggest that those have smaller and temporary bonuses, while one that is aproved by the papacy has bigger and permanent bonuses, since it has bigger legitimacy
 
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Latin Patriarchs in 1337

Rome
Carthage
Jerusalem
Constantinople
Antioch
Alexandria
Grado/Venice (It was already a position in Venice in this time but titled as Grado until 1451)
Aquileia (Merged with Venice in 1751)
Lisbon

There's also a couple of Patriarchs established by rome over the campaign
West Indies
Ethiopia
East Indies

Please represent them!!! o_Oo_O
Rome is... well, Rome; for the dev's intents that is the Papal State.
Carthage was never a patriarchate; it had informal primacy as an archdiocese but was only ever just an archdiocese (that in 1337 had no bishop).
The Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem in 1337 was residing in Cyprus, but yes, they did exist.
The Latin Patriarch of Constantinople in 1314 was unified with Negroponte with Athens made suffragan; it existed still in 1337.
The Latin Patriarch of Antioch was titular in 1337 (not to be confused with the Maronite Patriarch of Antioch, which was in communion with Rome)
The Latin Patriarch of Alexandria was titular in 1337 as well as vacant (though only for 3 years, and historically filled again in 1342). Notably the Greek Patriarch of Alexandria had been in communion with Rome up to about 1310 (if we interpret the creation of the Latin Patriarch of Alexandria as indicating the communion breaking).
Grado was a patriarch at this time, yes.
Aquileia is also a patriarch which, given its landed holdings, no doubt exists present on the map already.
Lisbon is only a diocese in 1337; it'll be elevated to metropolitan a bit after the start date and only to patriarch much later.

Given that most of these aren't actually landed, I doubt the devs will do much in the way of representing them. Now, I have plans...
 
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Napoleon proclaimed himself Emperor in 1804, while the HRE was dissolved in 1806
Revolutionary empires should be an exception to the usual rules around becoming an empire. Napolion was very much doing his own thing there. Actually a revolutionary empire should probably remove the catholic and HRE restrictions on declaring yourself an empire, since Austria declared itself an empire before the HRE was dissolved.
 
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I would have thought the same as EU4? Through events or forced conversion through war. It would be cool if there were a few more way though.

I wonder how you enter and leave the Church. I guess it happens automatically once you join/leave it.
Honestly if they can add that in the future that would be amazing. Though if they can get that back into the start of this game that would be amazing. I think they had the decision in the decisions tab and even in one of the mission trees. Would work well with prestige and everything too. It’s a shame it won’t be from what was said apparently. Would be more fun, flavorful, and such.
 
Napoleon also did a very specific carve-out of not being the Emperor of France but instead the Emperor of the French. Basically he completely disavowed the idea of sovereignty through ownership and instead went with sovereignty through acclamation (instead of representing a territory, he represented a people).

Basically it's the sort of thing that only makes sense when nationalism comes a-rolling. Once Napoleon did that, Austria elevated itself over concerns of the impeding collapse of the HRE. At that point, though, the Austrian Empire wasn't in succession to Rome, but of the HRE itself (even if there was a bit of overlap). Germany's unification led to that proclamation of an empire, but again the phrasing is specific: "German Emperor". Not Emperor of the Germans (which would imply popular sovereignty). Not Emperor of Germany (which would imply territorial sovereignty). German Emperor.

So, I'd say a revolutionary state, even Catholic, would be able to bypass the Catholic restriction on Empire-forming (assuming, of course, that we're in the Age of Revolutions) but make a very specific title of the form "X Empire" where X is their primary culture's possessive form, and their ruler being "Emperor of the X". In the event that their title wasn't constructed in this fashion, then it'd just be the usual "Empire of X" or whatever else.

If you're the HRE Emperor and a foreign empire (whether Catholic or otherwise; key idea is that they're equals to the HRE, not to whatever title you otherwise personally hold) has conquered or otherwise subjugated some number of states in the HRE and you happen to be emperor such that you've effectively made the title hereditary (since otherwise this makes no damn sense), then you can elevate your own personal title to that of Emperor. Doesn't make any sense otherwise.
 
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Rome is... well, Rome; for the dev's intents that is the Papal State.
Carthage was never a patriarchate; it had informal primacy as an archdiocese but was only ever just an archdiocese (that in 1337 had no bishop).
The Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem in 1337 was residing in Cyprus, but yes, they did exist.
The Latin Patriarch of Constantinople in 1314 was unified with Negroponte with Athens made suffragan; it existed still in 1337.
The Latin Patriarch of Antioch was titular in 1337 (not to be confused with the Maronite Patriarch of Antioch, which was in communion with Rome)
The Latin Patriarch of Alexandria was titular in 1337 as well as vacant (though only for 3 years, and historically filled again in 1342). Notably the Greek Patriarch of Alexandria had been in communion with Rome up to about 1310 (if we interpret the creation of the Latin Patriarch of Alexandria as indicating the communion breaking).
Grado was a patriarch at this time, yes.
Aquileia is also a patriarch which, given its landed holdings, no doubt exists present on the map already.
Lisbon is only a diocese in 1337; it'll be elevated to metropolitan a bit after the start date and only to patriarch much later.

Given that most of these aren't actually landed, I doubt the devs will do much in the way of representing them. Now, I have plans...

Well the Patriarch of rome is as I think most people know Mr 3 crowns head honcho which I think makes things kind of interesting in the regards of representation, The rest however tended to be really quite important, albeit mostly in exile I'd say calling them titular over landed is over simplification considering that they would very quickly become landed should the area be under catholic control.

For most of the historic period having your pocket patriarch (titular or landed) especially pre-reformation is such an important thing in negotiating with the church considering their position within the church that really doesn't seem to be represented from what I'd consider any other game. I know I originally made a very brief and now edited post with a couple of errors but I'd love to see something played with more seriously than "Cardinals" considering the sway that in theory Patriarchs should have over Cardinals of a region for example?

I'm not entirely sure what I'd suggest but in my mind there should be something a little bit special with them even if it comes down to having something as simple as 3 votes in the elections and moving around a little, for example The Patriarch of Jerusalem being in Cyprus then moving to Rome/Avignon or potentially being attracted to major courts in Europe in some kind of little semi alt history path for a certain benefit of some kind

I'm also thinking, if we are able to play as banks and company buildings as they have told us, playing as seats such as patriarchal seats landed or not doesn't seem to feel out of this world to me and perhaps the idea to play as a religious seat feels fairly normalised in that what do you think? The idea of being able to play as essentially semi failed theocracies would be brilliant if you ask me

I just think it makes things more interesting to throw ideas out and see what sticks but I definitely think they should be represented although I feel like I may be in the minority it could throw out some hugely interesting gameplay

I'd love to hear your thoughts!!
 
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