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Tinto Talks #66 - 4th of June 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Islam. In EUV, it is considered a Religious Group, as Christianity or Buddhism:
Islam.png

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D, and 3D art WIP.

As you see, three Religions compose the group: Sunnism, Shiism, and Ibadism:
Sunnism.png

Shiism.png

Ibadism.png

They share similar features, and then inside them is where we make the religious differentiation:
Islam panel.png

The first mechanic is Schools, an old companion from EU4, but that has been reworked in EU5:
Religious School.png

Muslim countries start with a School, which gives some modifiers:
Hanafi.jpg

As you can see, each School has a different view of the other. This is important because you can invite Scholars of Schools that are available for your branch of Islam, and also don’t have a negative opinion of your chosen School.

Because, yes, the old EU4 Scholars are also present in EU5, but they’re now inside a new category, the ‘Religious Figures’, which gives some more flexibility on how to use them:
Religious Figure.jpg

Scholar.png

Scholars are now characters that can travel through the Islamic world and be invited to work for you:
Invite Scholar.png

This unlocks the possibility to change the Main School of your country to that of the Scholar:
Change Main School1.png

Change Main School2.png

Change Main School3.png

In total, we have this number of schools, with some schools being available to more than one religion:
  • 10 Sunni:
    • Ḥanafī
    • Ḥanbalī
    • Mālikī
    • Shāfi'ī
    • Ẓāhirī
    • Ash'arī
    • Māturīdī
    • Aṯarī
    • Mu'tazilī
    • Wahhābī
  • 11 Sufi - Both for Sunni and Shia, except 3:
    • Bektashi
    • Chishtī (only for Sunnism)
    • Ḵalwātī
    • Mevlevi
    • Naqshbandī (only for Sunnism)
    • Qādirī (only for Sunnism)
    • Ṣafavī
    • Shāḏilī
    • Suhrawardī
    • Īsāwī
    • Dīn-i Ilāhī
  • 8 Shia:
    • Ismā'īlī
    • Ja'farī
    • Zaydī
    • Imāmīya
    • Nizārī
    • Musta'lī
    • Alevism
    • 'Alawī
  • 1 Ibadi:
    • Ibadi - only for Ibadi
    • It also has access to all the Sunni and Shia schools, but not the Sufi ones

The main currency for the religion is Piety, again a returning concept from EU4. Piety can go from a value of -100 to +100 (representing Mysticism or Legalism respectively), giving scaling benefits to the country depending on the direction.
Piety.png

Piety will be modified towards one extreme or the other mainly through events, although there are also some ways of adding a passive monthly tendency towards one direction, including privileges and cabinet actions. Another important aspect to mention regarding piety is the fact that to be able to invite a Scholar belonging to any of the Sufi schools, the country must already be leaning towards Mysticism.

There are a couple of actions in which the country can spend its piety to gain some benefits. A country can exchange piety for either stability or manpower, and both actions require being at 50 piety towards either direction, and move the value 40 towards the center.
Manpower Action.png

Stability Action.png

There is also the option to perform a pilgrimage to one of the Holy Sites, as long as they are owned by the country, an ally, or someone with good relations. Performing a pilgrimage will give a small increase in piety, as well as sending the ruler on a holy journey.
Pilgrimage.png

Another important aspect to mention is the fact that Muslim countries have access to some unique laws and policies:
Iqta Law.png

Nikah Policy.png

Shariah Law Policy.png

Implementing the Sharī'ah Law will unlock an extra law, the Sharī'ah Jurisprudence, with policies dependent on the country’s main school.
Shariah Jurisprudence.png

Finally, there are a couple of unique buildings available for Islamic countries:
Madrassa.png

Sufi Loge.png

And that’s all for today! Tomorrow is Thursday, which means that we will publish a new ‘Behind the Scenes’ video, and on Friday, we will take a look at the Ottomans and the Rise of the Turks situation!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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The way this conflates School of Jurisprudence (Fiqh), School of Theology (Kalam) and Creed (Seemingly Tariqah) is really off. There was not only not a conflict between these three things but they were integrated part of each other.

For example Ottoman Empire followed Hanafi School of Jurisprudence, Maturidi School of Theology and within that it had various Sufi lodges of both Orthodox and Heterodox origin, such as Naqshibandi and Bektashi respectively. Current representation is completely and utterly inaccurate and off to point it is outright disinformation.

What should happen is there should be available School of Jurisprudence to each Sect, and independently from this there should be School of Theology available to each Sect, and finally there should be a list of Creeds available without a limit present within that territory.
 
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As you see, Safavid already starts the game as a school. Around the 1400s, if an Islamic country owns Ardabil, and has Safavid as its Main School, an event will trigger, creating a new country in that location, Ardabil, and allowing the player to change to it.
Won't it be better to have the Safawiyyah holy order spawn as a BBC and then through events it can acquire lands in ardabil and become a landed country?
 
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In total, we have this number of schools, with some schools being available to more than one religion:
  • 10 Sunni:
    • Ḥanafī
    • Ḥanbalī
    • Mālikī
    • Shāfi'ī
    • Ẓāhirī
    • Ash'arī
    • Māturīdī
    • Aṯarī
    • Mu'tazilī
    • Wahhābī
So you have two concepts mixed in here. You got schools of law and schools of theology. My understanding is that you could follow one theological school while following a Madhhab of your choice, though there would be overlaps as some did favor one over the other.

So the Madhhab you have are: Hanafi, Hanabli, Maliki, Shafi'i, and Zahiri. Picking between them, is good as these are legal matters and a country would have its lawyers trained in that school of law.

And for the schools of theology you got Ashari, Maturidi, Atari, and Mu'tazili.

I don't know if the schools of theology were personal or if they were something that a polity patronized.

That said In regards to Mu'tazili following the Minha it was hated among mainstream sunni schools, and their books were banned. I don't know their history after the mongol sacked Baghdad. But if you are a follower of Mu'tazli then you should have to deal with this dislike and disdain, as well as efforts to try and regain trust with the rest of the sunni faithful.

For Wahabism it is a late game(1700s) thing and IIRC they follow primarily the Hanabli school. It shouldn't be something there for the most part, though an event if Arabia has been under control of foriegn powers for a long time, like the turks, would be good.

  • 11 Sufi - Both for Sunni and Shia, except 3:
    • Bektashi
    • Chishtī (only for Sunnism)
    • Ḵalwātī
    • Mevlevi
    • Naqshbandī (only for Sunnism)
    • Qādirī (only for Sunnism)
    • Ṣafavī
    • Shāḏilī
    • Suhrawardī
    • Īsāwī
    • Dīn-i Ilāhī
In regard to Sufi orders, I agree with others that sufi orders should be something like building based countries or what not. They are not a separate branch of islam like Ibadi, Sunni, or Shia but interwoven within them and can have there own thing. they aren't a school of jurisprudence.

sufi orders and their various saints should also play a major role in South and South east Asian islam as my understanding is that what helped to spread islam were the sufi orders in those regions. Sufi Saint shrines should be possible to build IMO as pilgrimage sites, IIRC the Chishtī were rather popular among the Mughal emperors and nobility. Akbar visited one of the shrines like over a dozen times IIRC.
  • 8 Shia:
    • Ismā'īlī
    • Ja'farī
    • Zaydī
    • Imāmīya
    • Nizārī
    • Musta'lī
    • Alevism
    • 'Alawī
For Shiism the school of theology for my understanding is the Ja'fari school. Regardless if one's branch is the Zaydi, Ismaili, Imamiya, etc. so having as its own school is a bit odd as the school should just be part of shia.

Second the different branchs differ on who is the Imam, which is very important in Shia islam. For some of them like twelver(Imamiya) the twelth imam is in occultation, but for others there is an imam. Consquently that should be there as that is important. Who the imam is should be a major thing. if you follow one of the branches where the is still a living Imam, like Zaydi or the Isma'ilis branches then how pious your leader is should affect things. While for the twelver

Relatedly Ismailism, Musta'li and Nizari are all part of the same branch(Ismailism) as the Musta'li and Nizari schismed over which fatmid caliph was the rightful caliph. There is also sub groups of these two, such as the Tayyibi and Hafizi. Reuniting the Musta'li and Nizari should be possible and then I would say you can become Ismaili again.

what i would probably do is break off the branches all together and have the religions be: Zaydi, Imamiya, and Ismailism(with there being an IO over if you support the Nizari branch or the Musta'li branch), along with having 'Alwai and Alveism as their own separate religions, with a trait or something to reflect that they are shia in origin.

  • 1 Ibadi:
    • Ibadi - only for Ibadi
    • It also has access to all the Sunni and Shia schools, but not the Sufi ones
For Ibadi islam, if you are going for school of thought then Ibadi wouldn't be the one to use. Instead you would want to go with Azzabas, Wahbi, and Nukari. Though the Wahbi school is dominate, during the game's period especially in the begining in north africa the Azzabas school was popular among north african Ibadi. I can't recall if the Nukari school was still around or not. But the Azzabas was so there should at least be two schools of thought here.
 
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I am a bit disappointed to be honest, most of this seems to be ported directly out of EU4.
I had hoped to see the caliphate represented somehow (who controls the caliphate, who recognizes his authority etc)
Also disappointed with how the subsects (maddhab) are handled. I also generally dislike click the button to gain effect mechanics (like the free manpower button). And the piety system I felt was an oversimplification, which unfortunately is returning for EU5 as well.
 
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I believe sunni islam should have a caliphate IO.

Twelvers should be able to claim their leader is the mahdi if they have enough 'religious power'.
 
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It's not a typo. Your clergy is more satisfied if your country is going on full Legalism or full Mysticism, but less satisfied if you're in-between (so, there isn't a clear direction for your society).
Not sure if piety is the best name for that mechanic to be honest.
 
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Hi @Pavía , thanks for the DD, very interesting.

1. A feedback on the point below:
There are a couple of actions in which the country can spend its piety to gain some benefits. A country can exchange piety for either stability or manpower, and both actions require being at 50 piety towards either direction, and move the value 40 towards the center.
This is the kinda of current EU4 system that I personally do not like and to me it goes against the direction EU5 is going, which is not to have Mana and not to have "click button for immediate benefits". I would very much like to see this reformed into something else, i.e. if you would like to keep the type of reward change it to something like a 2 year "monthly stability investment" and "monthly manpower increase".

I think EU5 would be much better if we are not in a loop of "event -> -5k manpower" then "click religious button -> +5k manpower" or "event -> -50 stability hit" then "click religious button -> +50 stability". These types of instant benefit actions remove a bit the value of the actual currency they provide instantly and feel gamey imo.

2. Question:
Is there currently implemented or a plan to have some sort of "muslim decadence" over the centuries?

This could be controversial, but we do see on the timespan of the game the Muslim world going from innovative and advanced tech wise to lagging behind the Christian world. Do we have any mechanic or maybe age related thing that would nudge the Muslim world into decadance? Maybe a situation or disaster.
 
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Hi @Pavía , thanks for the DD, very interesting.

1. A feedback on the point below:

This is the kinda of current EU4 system that I personally do not like and to me it goes against the direction EU5 is going, which is not to have Mana and not to have "click button for immediate benefits". I would very much like to see this reformed into something else, i.e. if you would like to keep the type of reward change it to something like a 2 year "monthly stability investment" and "monthly manpower increase".

I think EU5 would be much better if we are not in a loop of "event -> -5k manpower" then "click religious button -> +5k manpower" or "event -> -50 stability hit" then "click religious button -> +50 stability". These types of instant benefit actions remove a bit the value of the actual currency they provide instantly and feel gamey imo.

2. Question:
Is there currently implemented or a plan to have some sort of "muslim decadence" over the centuries?

This could be controversial, but we do see on the timespan of the game the Muslim world going from innovative and advanced tech wise to lagging behind the Christian world. Do we have any mechanic or maybe age related thing that would nudge the Muslim world into decadance? Maybe a situation or disaster.
Agree with point 1. Modifiers over time feel more a lot more natural.
I vehemently disagree with point 2. Decadence mechanics should die with CK2. I like the idea of mechanics to make large realms less stable, but not when it's in reference to some concept of state decadence which has no root in reality.
 
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All characters are considered adults at 16 years old, and they can marry at 21 years old. Take into account that this is because of compliance with PEGI and other equivalent rules.
Why 21? Are there any laws/rules setting the age of marriage at 21? Seems arbitrary I've never seen such a thing before
 
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We'd like to potentially have the Madhhab and Aqidah schools separated in different categories, because you may notice that we're already covering both types in detail. But that requires some non-trivial code work to make it work as it should, which is why I'm saying potentially.

Regarding orders, we don't really have Catholic religious orders as BBCs, just some Military Orders (Iberian). If, some time in the future, we add religious orders, which is an interesting suggestion, we might think about it. We also had an initial draft of having the Schools as IOs, like with the Hindu branches, but that wasn't really working as we wanted from a design standpoint, so we changed to the current design.
Are the Iberian Military Orders not Religious Orders? What's the difference? They appeared in the Catholic IO pannel as Catholic military orders together with teutonics and the others.
 
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The morale bonuses seem too strong. 5% from Shia and 10% from full Mysticism (possibly more from any schools or scholars, with 16 schools being available to mystic Shia countries, would love more info on the specific schools). I like the direction and quality of the flavor; I just hope to avoid any overpowered mechanics and modifier stacking of EU4 levels.
 
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Does anyone else think it's odd that the Muslim denominations give +1.00 religious figures allowed? Obviously you can't have a fraction of a religious figure, so why isn't it just +1?
 
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Are the Iberian Military Orders not Religious Orders? What's the difference? They appeared in the Catholic IO pannel as Catholic military orders together with teutonics and the others.
I think it refers to orders with actual armies, land and/or holdings, for example the order of the Garter did not have that(afaik)