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Tinto Talks # 7 -10th of April

Welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Talks, where we talk about really super secret stuff, that is hidden behind the code name of ‘Project Caesar’.

Today we’ll look into what makes up the economy in Project Caesar. Obviously, we’ll go into much more detail on some of these aspects in later Tinto Talks. Right now though, we’ll go through the incomes and expenses of a country in the game.

Every month you have running incomes and expenses that need to be balanced, and if your balance is positive, your gold is increased and you can use that gold to invest in other things.

And with balancing incomes and expenses, of course there are sliders. Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.

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Incomes

If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.

The bulk of most countries' income will come from taxes though, and taxes in Project Caesar are really different than before. First of all, every estate has a possible tax base, a concept we will delve into much more detail next week. This you can attempt tax from them, but every estate has a maximum tax you can take from them, which depends on your laws and their privileges, and how much power they have in your country. The higher the tax you take from them, the lower their satisfaction equilibrium becomes. Some examples of tax affecting things include the Catholic religion which limits the taxes on Clergy, and also the ‘Auxilium et Consilium’ estate privilege for the nobles, which reduces the tax they pay.

Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.

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Here we have the possibility to tax the commoners a fair bit more…


Expenses
We all do love gaining gold, but sadly we also have to spend it, and while we can reduce some of the spending, we can not completely avoid all of it.

First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase. There are advances, laws, and other things that impact how much you need to spend here.

Then we have the cost for your standing army and navy, where spending less reduces their fighting capability. This is nothing new to our GSG games, so I am not sure why I need to mention this here.

Fort Maintenance is another common economic expense from our games, which is here as well. If you don’t pay, garrisons don’t tend to stick around.

Culture, this is an entirely new concept, which will become available in the Age of Renaissance, where you can invest money to get [TO BE TALKED ABOUT LATER], while also impacting your prestige.

You can also decide how much you wish to spend on your colonial charters, which is a new system we will talk about later this year.

Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well. Stability in itself ranges from +100 to -100, and will decay towards 0 on its own. There are two other ways to impact your stability gain, besides investing gold as mentioned here. One of them relates to the cabinet system, but another is a more long-term impact from how your country is built up, as it is based upon how many clergy pops you have of your state religion compared to the total population.

There are other expenses as you can see below, but one important thing to mention is that provinces that lack food will try to buy it from the local market.
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Maybe maybe we should cut down on our fleet, and maybe we don’t need ALL those forts. Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough!

Next week we’ll talk more in depth about how the tax base functions, how the food system works, and some other related issues.
 
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Maybe the slider could be renamed to something like "public buildings/institutions" with exactly same effect of increasing stability. It is true that the name is on a different level of abstraction than other items on that list.
"Public works" seems appropriate. Though there is an issue that I sort of think it would be nice to represent famine relief specifically. Famine relief might have only a regional effect (on the area expieriencing the famine) rather than a national one. Though perhaps this could simulated by reducing the unrest caused by famines if you have high "public works" spending.
 
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Will corruption be implemented in some sort of way? I personally like the concept but i didnt like how it worked in EU4 since it isnt really realistic that corruption would always stay at 0 like many people kept it usually.
 
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It sounds like a money sink. Spending gold without judging where it was spent and the return on the investment. Will all factions in the court agree that the money was well spend? Is this "pork" to all factions so they support the current leadership?

Again this a bit odd, spending money to get stability witout knowing who benefits the most, are we gifting money to everyone so they remain calm? Shouldn't be the same as lowering taxes then? What is this stability that we are buying? Who is provoking the unstability that can be bought by money?
I agree completely especially with the stability point. If I want stability, then I should just reduce taxation so my estates are happier and thus calm and thus the nation is stable. Or just have a good cabinet, keep "great families" (ah... good old imperator) not alienated. Especially because Johan mentioned that money spent on stability goes "to the ether" anyway. So it is also money sink.

Edit: reducing income has the same effect on the economic balance as increasing spending, so I don't know why we don't just stick to the first without needing the second.
 
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Since you're going for sliders and over time boosts and penalty's insted of eu4's press the button lose inflation, if there are buttons to click that need estate's approval is it going to be "you don't have 50% loyalty" or is it going to be "you can do it but nobility is story enough to resist so might not want to" and then nobility forces the issue in parlament and demands something.
 
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So, stability spending and minting (treasury) are back. It seems like technology works on a different basis. Missionaries are nowhere to be seen (maybe in culture). I like the direct taxation of estates and the fact that there are maximal values for them depending on privilege. However, to prevent constant meddling, maybe each time you raise the taxes, this could go with an immediate loyalty hit (you would need a "confirm" button, though).

Someone also suggested "automated" sliders, so that you could give an objective like keeping the estates above a certain loyalty value and not think too much about it otherwise. That seems like a sound idea for a QoL feature.

Court spending should probably be renamed, but I understand it's linked to advisors, perhaps their loyalty and/or their efficiency.

It's also nice that forts and armies are separated. It would be nice, especially with a levy based military, if spending less on military and forts would have a bigger long term effect than having to wait 5 months for your army to be full of morale after a prolonged period of peace.

I'm a bit skeptical about "food", but we'll see what this is about.

The -100 to +100 scale for stability also makes sense, and is intuitive. People won't expect to always be at 100, and 0 will be the normal outside of some equilibrium. Though I hope it is heavily influenced by how the country is faring in reality, so if estates are discontent, stability would gradually tank.

I'm also, of course, hoping for war subsidies.

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"Public works" seems appropriate. Though there is an issue that I sort of think it would be nice to represent famine relief specifically. Famine relief might have only a regional effect (on the area expieriencing the famine) rather than a national one. Though perhaps this could simulated by reducing the unrest caused by famines if you have high "public works" spending.
But again, this would just be a cop-out on not linking stability with other systems. For public works, provinces have buildings and we should interact through buildings to bring stability then instead of a random slider. For famine relief, we know that food has a whole independent system, so we should interact with that to get stability.
 
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I really like the fact that priviliges, laws etc, will influence how much you can can each estate. However, I do also agree with others who have posted that using sliders for setting tax rates can be a little finicky. Have you considered replacing the slider with the percentage number that you can either amend by typing a new number or using a plus and minus button. The max allowed tax rate could be displayed next to it grayed out. This would likely be more user friendly.

I also want to echo what others have said about you receiving the money from sold surplus food and have to pay for any food needing to be bought from other provinces. Surely this expense should be born by the different estates in the province but affecting their wealth/happiness etc. It just seems strange to have a late medieval or early modern central government paying for people's food.
 
Age mechanic comes back! Will it be similar to EU4 or something like CK3? And what about cultures? Will they affect some goods, or give some buffs (or debuff)?
 
When it comes to investing our gold, will all the great projects be preset like in Eu4 or will we be able to build our own like in Imperator Rome and Crusader kings? Maybe a bit of both
 
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Is Estate wealth on a local level, e.g Burghers in London being wealthier because of more trade in London and then that resulting in them investing more in London, or is is based on a global level and estate wealth is spread out evenly?
 
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Will there be a national idea/cultural pillar system that influences spending? I'm particularly looking at the court spending. I can see a frugal Calvinist country frowning down on spending too much on your court, reducing the amount of money required to gain legitimacy/republican tradition, but also limiting how much you can spend to gain government legitimacy from spending.
 
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In my opinion,one of the things that forced the player to actively seek blobbing in eu4 with exploits was that there wasn't enough peace time activity,so to play the game you had to just conquer more and more.with increased estate interactions and more complex economic systems,will project Caesar have an engaging "non-war" gameplay loop?
 
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I have a suggestion regarding the UI reported in this dev diary. I think the symbol dedicated to the army is out of place. At the time the modern military star that we can find in the Russian, American, Italian armies etc. it was not used as a symbol in any army (correct me if I'm wrong). Finding this symbol in a game set in the 15th century is wierd and gives the whole menu an arcady and unhistorical feeling. For the rest everything is fantastic, I really appreciate how you decided to make a decisive break from the past. I'm pleased to note that you're bringing back a lot of highly appreciated mechanics from Imperator Rome: so that game wasn't completely in vain! I can't wait to try Eur... I mean, Project Ceasar!
 
You mentioned that Catholicism can affect taxes on clergy. How much depth will there be to the religion system in Project Caesar? In EU4, religions all had two standard bonuses and eventually most got unique mechanics of varying utility.

Will the religion system be more similar to how it was in EU4, or will it be more like CK3’s where all religions have lots of parameters and modifiers?

Will it be possible to have a secular state with no religion? Will it be possible to affect your religion’s tenants/bonuses (ie, Council of Trent, Protestant Church Aspects)?

I’m sure you’ll talk about the Reformation in a later talk, but I hope it doesn’t use the same model as EU4 and I hope there is more granularity to the religion system!

Also, I love that this new game seems to have a lot more depth in terms of internal politics. The way all the systems seem to interact with each other looks promising so far.
 
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