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Tinto Talks # 7 -10th of April

Welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Talks, where we talk about really super secret stuff, that is hidden behind the code name of ‘Project Caesar’.

Today we’ll look into what makes up the economy in Project Caesar. Obviously, we’ll go into much more detail on some of these aspects in later Tinto Talks. Right now though, we’ll go through the incomes and expenses of a country in the game.

Every month you have running incomes and expenses that need to be balanced, and if your balance is positive, your gold is increased and you can use that gold to invest in other things.

And with balancing incomes and expenses, of course there are sliders. Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.

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Incomes

If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.

The bulk of most countries' income will come from taxes though, and taxes in Project Caesar are really different than before. First of all, every estate has a possible tax base, a concept we will delve into much more detail next week. This you can attempt tax from them, but every estate has a maximum tax you can take from them, which depends on your laws and their privileges, and how much power they have in your country. The higher the tax you take from them, the lower their satisfaction equilibrium becomes. Some examples of tax affecting things include the Catholic religion which limits the taxes on Clergy, and also the ‘Auxilium et Consilium’ estate privilege for the nobles, which reduces the tax they pay.

Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.

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Here we have the possibility to tax the commoners a fair bit more…


Expenses
We all do love gaining gold, but sadly we also have to spend it, and while we can reduce some of the spending, we can not completely avoid all of it.

First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase. There are advances, laws, and other things that impact how much you need to spend here.

Then we have the cost for your standing army and navy, where spending less reduces their fighting capability. This is nothing new to our GSG games, so I am not sure why I need to mention this here.

Fort Maintenance is another common economic expense from our games, which is here as well. If you don’t pay, garrisons don’t tend to stick around.

Culture, this is an entirely new concept, which will become available in the Age of Renaissance, where you can invest money to get [TO BE TALKED ABOUT LATER], while also impacting your prestige.

You can also decide how much you wish to spend on your colonial charters, which is a new system we will talk about later this year.

Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well. Stability in itself ranges from +100 to -100, and will decay towards 0 on its own. There are two other ways to impact your stability gain, besides investing gold as mentioned here. One of them relates to the cabinet system, but another is a more long-term impact from how your country is built up, as it is based upon how many clergy pops you have of your state religion compared to the total population.

There are other expenses as you can see below, but one important thing to mention is that provinces that lack food will try to buy it from the local market.
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Maybe maybe we should cut down on our fleet, and maybe we don’t need ALL those forts. Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough!

Next week we’ll talk more in depth about how the tax base functions, how the food system works, and some other related issues.
 
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Inflation is the (increasing) disparity of amount of money to amount of production (and services) in your country. An increasing production needs more currency to be able to traded, otherwise deflation will occur. I hope that inflation/deflation will depend on the relation of production and amount of money; with that said, minting coins should only via that increase inflation - the lack of minting should lead to deflation in certain circumstances.
 
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So if an island nation decides to only import food and not produce themselves, they would starve to death eventually if 100% blockaded?

would take a while, but yeah.
 
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Who cares about bonuses, it's nice just having pretty 3d models.
This alone is a reason to include them. And it's so nice to visit and see them in real life, so far I have seen Duomo di Milano and Parthenon (just a few weeks ago). During the Summer I'm going to visit Ulm Minster (along with an AC/DC concert in Munich).
I'd much rather monuments have like a real world benefit or simply be there and present on the campaign map and if you click it it tells you what they are etc. As for the real world benefit I would like if it meant something like: you control the pyramids as a western power and now more of the rich pops (or a subsection of them) visit that area and some then stay behind as immigration and that would help that province in some indirect way. I would rather the game do away nearly totally with modifiers and modifier stacking if possible.
That's a good idea and another good reason why we should have them. They obviously shouldn't work like in EUIV.
 
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I hope that the economy is a deep, layered, and thoughtful aspect of the game. I want it to constantly be a point of attention that I actively have to manage and base my decisions around rather than something I click once to solve without any thought. The trade system especially should be top of the line. After all, the motivation behind a fair amount of war and exploration was due to the delicate balance of trade and the need to gain a competitive advantage. An economic system that is interwoven with the nations of the world would make the game actually feel alive. I aspire to feel the need to declare war on another nation, or intervene in a war, simply because their conflict jeopardizes my economy.
 
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How is trade good food diffrent from cows, fish, exotic fruit for example if it exists etc. Am i going to be able to choose which trade goods that are food my pops eat and which i sell?
 
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you can set percentage how you like.. think steps are 0.1%
Could we do the steps at 1% instead of 0.1%? It may be me, but my cognitive capacity will suffer if I have to balance decimals. Or at least make it moddable please. I'm playing another game with sliders and they have 2 decimals and I always spend one minute moving the slider exactly one extra pixel so the % goes to 20% instead of 19.87%.
 
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Looks nice however my one complaint is that the UI looks way to much like a mobile game. It would be nice to have the UI stuff to have a system where it changes it's look as you advance through the age like the start having a late medieval UI look and for the Renaissance to have a look for it's time and more. I would also love to see currency to have a different look depending on the nation your playing on,this would really help player feel that each nation is different
 
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@Johan

1) Can you debase currency like in EU4?

2) Can you literally ruin a game due to losing a lot of your population or is there a mechanism that tells you “enough is enough” and makes you stop the war/surrender to peace terms?

3) Will some of the plunder end up in the commoner estates wealth?

4) Is there any benefit to having a wealthy estate? Maybe socioeconomic progress? Will the wealth be broken down in a per capita calculation?

1) that is minting
2) you can ruin your game yes.
3) what plunder do you refer to?
4) yes
 
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1) that is minting
2) you can ruin your game yes.
3) what plunder do you refer to?
4) yes

Minting is making gold into coins though. Debasing is using cheaper metals to replace gold in that coin.

Like when your troops stay on a province, they take money from it in both ck3 and eu4. Historically, it was an incentive for recruitment and a lot of soldiers would end up taking valuables home.
 
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First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase.
It sounds like a money sink. Spending gold without judging where it was spent and the return on the investment. Will all factions in the court agree that the money was well spend? Is this "pork" to all factions so they support the current leadership?
Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well.
Again this is a bit odd, spending money to get stability witout knowing who benefits the most, are we gifting money to everyone so they remain calm? Shouldn't be the same as lowering taxes then? What is this stability that we are buying? Who is provoking the unstability that can be bought by money?
 
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maybe, but i find its better to have concepts with the same name..

it might change later on.
"Government maintenance" or "Administration maintenance" is probably a more universal way to describe what's actually being paid for here, agnostic of the underlying government type and the institution that is maintained (court, presidential office, etc.)
 
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In terms of importing food will this give rise to protectionism/free trade mechanics in a very light sense? (Obvsiously don't want to go into Vicky territory) As in there is a switch from mercantilism to free trade as the game goes on in some sense? So importing food could make food cheaper for your pops but could hurt the farmers and having tariffs would in theory protect your farmers but make food more expensive to buy in if you need it (while also helping you if there was a blockade if you are self sufficent.)

Not expecting anything really in depth of course that would be a bit silly but it would be interesting to see Free trade become a thing as the game goes on.
 
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Will there be more information about inflation at a later date?

I find this particularly interesting because from what I understand so far the power of estates directly correlates with the number of people within them but also, indirectly, their wealth. So how will a constant purchasing power decrease impact them? Will they invest more money in buildings that have increasingly lower return-on-investment for them/their estate but benefit others/the country more?
 
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