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Tinto Talks # 7 -10th of April

Welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Talks, where we talk about really super secret stuff, that is hidden behind the code name of ‘Project Caesar’.

Today we’ll look into what makes up the economy in Project Caesar. Obviously, we’ll go into much more detail on some of these aspects in later Tinto Talks. Right now though, we’ll go through the incomes and expenses of a country in the game.

Every month you have running incomes and expenses that need to be balanced, and if your balance is positive, your gold is increased and you can use that gold to invest in other things.

And with balancing incomes and expenses, of course there are sliders. Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.

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Incomes

If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.

The bulk of most countries' income will come from taxes though, and taxes in Project Caesar are really different than before. First of all, every estate has a possible tax base, a concept we will delve into much more detail next week. This you can attempt tax from them, but every estate has a maximum tax you can take from them, which depends on your laws and their privileges, and how much power they have in your country. The higher the tax you take from them, the lower their satisfaction equilibrium becomes. Some examples of tax affecting things include the Catholic religion which limits the taxes on Clergy, and also the ‘Auxilium et Consilium’ estate privilege for the nobles, which reduces the tax they pay.

Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.

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Here we have the possibility to tax the commoners a fair bit more…


Expenses
We all do love gaining gold, but sadly we also have to spend it, and while we can reduce some of the spending, we can not completely avoid all of it.

First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase. There are advances, laws, and other things that impact how much you need to spend here.

Then we have the cost for your standing army and navy, where spending less reduces their fighting capability. This is nothing new to our GSG games, so I am not sure why I need to mention this here.

Fort Maintenance is another common economic expense from our games, which is here as well. If you don’t pay, garrisons don’t tend to stick around.

Culture, this is an entirely new concept, which will become available in the Age of Renaissance, where you can invest money to get [TO BE TALKED ABOUT LATER], while also impacting your prestige.

You can also decide how much you wish to spend on your colonial charters, which is a new system we will talk about later this year.

Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well. Stability in itself ranges from +100 to -100, and will decay towards 0 on its own. There are two other ways to impact your stability gain, besides investing gold as mentioned here. One of them relates to the cabinet system, but another is a more long-term impact from how your country is built up, as it is based upon how many clergy pops you have of your state religion compared to the total population.

There are other expenses as you can see below, but one important thing to mention is that provinces that lack food will try to buy it from the local market.
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Maybe maybe we should cut down on our fleet, and maybe we don’t need ALL those forts. Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough!

Next week we’ll talk more in depth about how the tax base functions, how the food system works, and some other related issues.
 
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How will estate taxation be balanced when consdering tags that do not have those estates? Are tags that have more estate options just in a better position since they can make more taxes or will there be something to counterbalance that?

more estates is not more money, its more ways to split the tax base.
 
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Stability on a continuous sliding scale instead of a discrete -3 to +3 scale that causes jarring jumps from events? SIGN ME THE HECK UP! Otherwise this reminds me a lot of how EU3 handled your economy, with minting and stability investment. Though noticeably technological development is NOT one thing you spend money on. Hope that's not just a matter of burning mana.
 
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Very happy to see Stability as a long term thing and very happy to see more sliders!

Will armies and navies be more expensvie to have overall? I seen "evolution" being mentioned in terms of military and I think that a common problem in EU4, that is income not really scaling with expenses in terms of the military could coincide with a big uptick in maitenence as standing armies become the norm in order to avoid a few nations having huge standing armies by even 1490. I assume that going to war or being at war will also carry negatives for your economy and stability ala the infamy reduction in Victoria II being reduced.
A great idea.
I also hope that decisions on military technology and changes in it have more influence on economy. This could reflect in 2 things. One being the upfront cost of changing a country's military equipment and tactics. The other being that new technology is usually more expensive at first, and it gradually gets cheaper over time.
 
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Will the player have influence over a pop being represented in an estate or an somehow unrecognized minority?

Do unrecognized pops still contribute to income via food and trade?
 
Please continue producing native Linux versions!
 
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I agree. I really would like to ask the devs what spending on stability actually means. What is that money in-universe being used for? What actually is stability exactly?
I think that stability refers to the general situation of the country, its well-being. Basically, if you have a lot of stability, people are happy with the reign, have (more or less) enough to live on and feel safe. On the other hand, a lack of stability means that people lack resources, the government is not liked and people don't feel safe.

Spending money would in fact be spending for the public good. A bit like the emperors who were known to give a lot of money to the people, to the military, for the construction of public buildings and so on.

That's my understanding.
 
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From and To the market.. if there is no food in the market, they can't buy.. if you can't trace a safe path to the market center, there is no food transaction.
So if an island nation decides to only import food and not produce themselves, they would starve to death eventually if 100% blockaded?
 
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I'm not sold on the sliders, and I'd like there to be a button that automatically sets estate tax to "as high as possible without dropping below 50% equilibrium".
 
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I think EU4's Age System is relatively underrated and a good guideline for what you should be prioritising, and I like it's returning here.
Agree, I like the age system.
I also wonder if they'll ever consider adding the option to activate a dynamic age system.
I've suggested the idea before but it would be a challenge to implement.

It brings more 'what if' to the table, but by dropping historicity, so it should probably need a toggle in game options. But imagine if you could prevent the Age of Reformation from happening, or start the Age of Revolutions a century earlier, or go back to an old Age, all depending on global values based on the evolution of the world in your game. Or starting completely new "what if" ages; Age of Orthodoxy, Age of Autarchy, Age of Traditionalism, etc. probably lots of DLC potential here. I think the longer timeframe of P. Caesar allows for more options than before.

Anyway, I like the more complex economy and differentiated estate taxes! Let's hope trade goods become much more important, as a key element in the economy... and as casus belli for wars.
 
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I'd say its probably worse for bigger states to keep it up.
That makes me wish it was instead renamed to administration cost, because it doesn't really make sense in my head that suddenly you need to pay more for the same chef or meal ingredients just cause you took some village in the middle of nowhere, while it does make sense that you'd need to pay slightly more to keep the administrative network up and running.
 
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Will the game distinguish between crown-owned ventures and private ventures? In EU4, trade income was treated as a strange blend of the two.

yes
 
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