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Tinto Talks # 7 -10th of April

Welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Talks, where we talk about really super secret stuff, that is hidden behind the code name of ‘Project Caesar’.

Today we’ll look into what makes up the economy in Project Caesar. Obviously, we’ll go into much more detail on some of these aspects in later Tinto Talks. Right now though, we’ll go through the incomes and expenses of a country in the game.

Every month you have running incomes and expenses that need to be balanced, and if your balance is positive, your gold is increased and you can use that gold to invest in other things.

And with balancing incomes and expenses, of course there are sliders. Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.

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Incomes

If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.

The bulk of most countries' income will come from taxes though, and taxes in Project Caesar are really different than before. First of all, every estate has a possible tax base, a concept we will delve into much more detail next week. This you can attempt tax from them, but every estate has a maximum tax you can take from them, which depends on your laws and their privileges, and how much power they have in your country. The higher the tax you take from them, the lower their satisfaction equilibrium becomes. Some examples of tax affecting things include the Catholic religion which limits the taxes on Clergy, and also the ‘Auxilium et Consilium’ estate privilege for the nobles, which reduces the tax they pay.

Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.

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Here we have the possibility to tax the commoners a fair bit more…


Expenses
We all do love gaining gold, but sadly we also have to spend it, and while we can reduce some of the spending, we can not completely avoid all of it.

First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase. There are advances, laws, and other things that impact how much you need to spend here.

Then we have the cost for your standing army and navy, where spending less reduces their fighting capability. This is nothing new to our GSG games, so I am not sure why I need to mention this here.

Fort Maintenance is another common economic expense from our games, which is here as well. If you don’t pay, garrisons don’t tend to stick around.

Culture, this is an entirely new concept, which will become available in the Age of Renaissance, where you can invest money to get [TO BE TALKED ABOUT LATER], while also impacting your prestige.

You can also decide how much you wish to spend on your colonial charters, which is a new system we will talk about later this year.

Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well. Stability in itself ranges from +100 to -100, and will decay towards 0 on its own. There are two other ways to impact your stability gain, besides investing gold as mentioned here. One of them relates to the cabinet system, but another is a more long-term impact from how your country is built up, as it is based upon how many clergy pops you have of your state religion compared to the total population.

There are other expenses as you can see below, but one important thing to mention is that provinces that lack food will try to buy it from the local market.
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Maybe maybe we should cut down on our fleet, and maybe we don’t need ALL those forts. Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough!

Next week we’ll talk more in depth about how the tax base functions, how the food system works, and some other related issues.
 
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The Dhimmi estate is an abstraction we don't need in the game, especially now when Project Caesar has population. Is there any possibility of estates being divided amongst religious/cultural lines? I think this would be a more fun way of representing the Dhimmi estate, which would also allow for other countries (not just the Muslims) to manage and interact with their minorities.
good idea!
 
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I dislike buying stability, that feels too abstract to me. This is the first this that I just outright disagree with. Maybe this should just also be roped in with the Court expenses. I also think infrastructure should be a recurring expense. We know roads are going to be a part of the game, it shouldn't be a one-time expense to build.
I agree. I really would like to ask the devs what spending on stability actually means. What is that money in-universe being used for? What actually is stability exactly?
 
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Also, from where this food is bought from or sold to? Hopefully not from nowhere and sold to nowhere.

From and To the market.. if there is no food in the market, they can't buy.. if you can't trace a safe path to the market center, there is no food transaction.
 
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It seems that all wealth generation in the country is made within the estates and the crown just taxes them afterwards for income, which is a great mechanic, but then this whole food income/expenditure for the crown seems weird and out of place. Hopefully, we will get more info about it.
 
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will there be a 'credit' system, where if i take too many loans my credit score goes down and the Fuggers or Medicis or Bardis refuse to continue to bankroll me?

would be a great way for me to teach my kids about fiscal responsibility lol
This would make more sense than a max loan number based on how mich dev you have
 
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So the Age of Renaissance. I know this is actually an economically themed dev diary, so I can ask again later. But I am very curious about Tinto's theory of history for project Caesar. Since, the Renaissance was a big deal in Europe, but not outside of it. In a different Paradox game, EU4, all states are expected to develop the Renaissance. Which is just kinda silly. Since, say the Islamic world didn't loose these texts, they preserved them. And many others like the Chinese and Indians had their own traditions and ancient texts.

What is the plan for Project Caesar? Since it is set in the early modern era. Will all states go through the Age of Renaissance? Previously you have shown maps including India and China. They places have nothing to do with the Renaissance in Europe. Will they have their own Ages?
 
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Presumably levies are free until you raise them, and then they slot neatly into army maintenance slider suffering the same penalties to morale/reinforcement rate while they are raised?
 
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Are sliders really that useful? In EU4 the only economy slider that I ever touched in a meaningful way was the anti-corruption one, and only to keep my finances positive while still working on corruption.

The navy and the army sliders could've just had a maintenance toggle like forts for all I cared.

There is a button to automate the sliders if you so prefer.
 
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Will the satisfaction equilibrium from taxation move somehow as time progresses? As in, 10% tax in 1400 will be seen as much more harsh than 10% tax in 1800. Historically the central governments just slowly levied more and more taxes on the population as their authority grew, and people got used to a degree of tax that would've caused a revolution 100-200 years previously.

effectively yes, but not exactly.
 
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Hold on - does mercenary income mean we can hire out mercs to other countries? And will that be different from condottieri in EUIV?

yes and yes
 
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It's actually a good thing that the court is factored in the state maintenance now. I noticed that the army in the pic costs basically nothing compared to the navy, that means that EUV... sorry Project Caesar will now have a mix of standing armies and levies?

yes.

and the standing army is pitiful at the start for almost everyone.
 
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I really don't like how gold is used as the currency when it's probably going to be a good in the game. I get Ducats can appear eurocentric, although I'm not sure of a better alternative
Lets be very real here, everyone is gonna call it ducats regardless, just like in every game.
 
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From and To the market.. if there is no food in the market, they can't buy.. if you can't trace a safe path to the market center, there is no food transaction.
Nice, we can definitely starve our enemies cities population to death then :)
No more Culture conversion, empty cities = free housing for my "accepted culture" :p
 
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Will there be better flags/coats of arms in Project Caesar? One of my biggest nitpicks of EU4 is seeing Somalia use the flag of the modern day country of Somalia or Illinois use a flag that was designed in the 1900s and never even used anyway.
 
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