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Tinto Talks # 7 -10th of April

Welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Talks, where we talk about really super secret stuff, that is hidden behind the code name of ‘Project Caesar’.

Today we’ll look into what makes up the economy in Project Caesar. Obviously, we’ll go into much more detail on some of these aspects in later Tinto Talks. Right now though, we’ll go through the incomes and expenses of a country in the game.

Every month you have running incomes and expenses that need to be balanced, and if your balance is positive, your gold is increased and you can use that gold to invest in other things.

And with balancing incomes and expenses, of course there are sliders. Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.

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Incomes

If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.

The bulk of most countries' income will come from taxes though, and taxes in Project Caesar are really different than before. First of all, every estate has a possible tax base, a concept we will delve into much more detail next week. This you can attempt tax from them, but every estate has a maximum tax you can take from them, which depends on your laws and their privileges, and how much power they have in your country. The higher the tax you take from them, the lower their satisfaction equilibrium becomes. Some examples of tax affecting things include the Catholic religion which limits the taxes on Clergy, and also the ‘Auxilium et Consilium’ estate privilege for the nobles, which reduces the tax they pay.

Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.

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Here we have the possibility to tax the commoners a fair bit more…


Expenses
We all do love gaining gold, but sadly we also have to spend it, and while we can reduce some of the spending, we can not completely avoid all of it.

First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase. There are advances, laws, and other things that impact how much you need to spend here.

Then we have the cost for your standing army and navy, where spending less reduces their fighting capability. This is nothing new to our GSG games, so I am not sure why I need to mention this here.

Fort Maintenance is another common economic expense from our games, which is here as well. If you don’t pay, garrisons don’t tend to stick around.

Culture, this is an entirely new concept, which will become available in the Age of Renaissance, where you can invest money to get [TO BE TALKED ABOUT LATER], while also impacting your prestige.

You can also decide how much you wish to spend on your colonial charters, which is a new system we will talk about later this year.

Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well. Stability in itself ranges from +100 to -100, and will decay towards 0 on its own. There are two other ways to impact your stability gain, besides investing gold as mentioned here. One of them relates to the cabinet system, but another is a more long-term impact from how your country is built up, as it is based upon how many clergy pops you have of your state religion compared to the total population.

There are other expenses as you can see below, but one important thing to mention is that provinces that lack food will try to buy it from the local market.
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Maybe maybe we should cut down on our fleet, and maybe we don’t need ALL those forts. Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough!

Next week we’ll talk more in depth about how the tax base functions, how the food system works, and some other related issues.
 
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Why is crown gaining or loosing income from buying/selling food? Doesn't make much sense to me. Also, from where this food is bought from or sold to? Hopefully not from nowhere and sold to nowhere.
Some provinces have a surplus and are selling on the open market. Most have a deficit and are buying.
 
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And with balancing incomes and expenses, of course there are sliders. Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.
Shots fired.

Not that I'm complaining, mind you. Sliders are great. A lot better than a few discrete buttons.
 
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Hmmmm, you'll probably go into this next week, but what happens to taxes on pops that are not part of any estates? Is there a separate system for those?

all pops belong to an estate, or they won't have any power so they wont have any money.
 
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Is there a reason why "Selling Food" has been chosen as a specific provincial source of income, and not "Selling Goods" in general? Will provincial economy activity be limited to food?
 
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We have 3 more weeks of purely economic development diaries after this one, so stay tuned.
I should mention that by "serious penalties" I don't just mean an annoying income drop.

Getting its wool supply from England cut off could (and did) historically lead to unrest and riots by the weaving industry in Flanders. Having your cloth industry shut down isn't just some abstract inconvenience for the state. When cloth is your main export, a large part of the population depends on that work for their livelihood. In a game with pops, I imagine the worker pops (and burgher estate) would not be happy about an interruption like this at all.

In political terms, this put some real constraints on the kind of diplomacy that rulers in the Low Countries could engage in. Antagonize England too much and you end up with no industry and an unemployed, starving, and angry home populace.

Just a thought.
 
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How will estate taxation be balanced when consdering tags that do not have those estates? Are tags that have more estate options just in a better position since they can make more taxes or will there be something to counterbalance that?

Speaking of, I hope Muslims do not have a clergy estate in this game or at the least it's not called "Ulema". Islam doesn't have any official hierarchical priesthoods and the ulema were just the judiciary arm of the government. They didn't own land as an institution, since they were a part of the government so any buildings (eg courthouses) they controlled was government-owned. When it comes to estate interactions analagous to Christian churches or Buddhist temples, such as owning land separate of that from the government's and advocating for religious interests in government, Sufi orders are closer.
 
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How selling and buying food differs from trade?? Like that is trading.

And another question: Will it be possible to take 50 freaking loans as any nation anywhere in the world( like in EU4)? That mechanic is insanely stupid and unrealistic, borrowing huge amount of money out of thin air, I don't want to see some one province state with no real income or possibility to survive on the map for the next 20 years being able to get X-amount of ducats from nowhere.
 
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if you have no money, you take loans, if you can't take loans, you go bankrupt.
will there be a 'credit' system, where if i take too many loans my credit score goes down and the Fuggers or Medicis or Bardis begin increasing my interest then outright refuse to continue to bankroll me?

would be a great way for me to teach my kids about fiscal responsibility lol
 
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Will there be other problems from not paying your army/navy than just a reduction in combat ability. Things like unpaid soldiers turning to banditry or just leaving to find other employment and unpaid sailors tuning to piracy? It’s always felt very gamey to me how you could just keep your army/navy unfunded with little consequence outside of immediate combat readiness.
 
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Hi Johan. Just one question. When will we get a more complete and coherent version of gow the game systems work? So far you are just showing the overall ideas of how the work in the basics, but it seems like a lot of details of how the work and how they interact with each other are missing.

There is so much things to talk about, and to be able to explain X, I need people to know Y, and to explain Y then need to know C etc,,
 
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