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Tinto Talks # 7 -10th of April

Welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Talks, where we talk about really super secret stuff, that is hidden behind the code name of ‘Project Caesar’.

Today we’ll look into what makes up the economy in Project Caesar. Obviously, we’ll go into much more detail on some of these aspects in later Tinto Talks. Right now though, we’ll go through the incomes and expenses of a country in the game.

Every month you have running incomes and expenses that need to be balanced, and if your balance is positive, your gold is increased and you can use that gold to invest in other things.

And with balancing incomes and expenses, of course there are sliders. Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.

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Incomes

If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.

The bulk of most countries' income will come from taxes though, and taxes in Project Caesar are really different than before. First of all, every estate has a possible tax base, a concept we will delve into much more detail next week. This you can attempt tax from them, but every estate has a maximum tax you can take from them, which depends on your laws and their privileges, and how much power they have in your country. The higher the tax you take from them, the lower their satisfaction equilibrium becomes. Some examples of tax affecting things include the Catholic religion which limits the taxes on Clergy, and also the ‘Auxilium et Consilium’ estate privilege for the nobles, which reduces the tax they pay.

Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.

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Here we have the possibility to tax the commoners a fair bit more…


Expenses
We all do love gaining gold, but sadly we also have to spend it, and while we can reduce some of the spending, we can not completely avoid all of it.

First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase. There are advances, laws, and other things that impact how much you need to spend here.

Then we have the cost for your standing army and navy, where spending less reduces their fighting capability. This is nothing new to our GSG games, so I am not sure why I need to mention this here.

Fort Maintenance is another common economic expense from our games, which is here as well. If you don’t pay, garrisons don’t tend to stick around.

Culture, this is an entirely new concept, which will become available in the Age of Renaissance, where you can invest money to get [TO BE TALKED ABOUT LATER], while also impacting your prestige.

You can also decide how much you wish to spend on your colonial charters, which is a new system we will talk about later this year.

Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well. Stability in itself ranges from +100 to -100, and will decay towards 0 on its own. There are two other ways to impact your stability gain, besides investing gold as mentioned here. One of them relates to the cabinet system, but another is a more long-term impact from how your country is built up, as it is based upon how many clergy pops you have of your state religion compared to the total population.

There are other expenses as you can see below, but one important thing to mention is that provinces that lack food will try to buy it from the local market.
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Maybe maybe we should cut down on our fleet, and maybe we don’t need ALL those forts. Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough!

Next week we’ll talk more in depth about how the tax base functions, how the food system works, and some other related issues.
 
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Why is crown gaining or loosing income from buying/selling food? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, from where this food is bought from or sold to? Hopefully not from nowhere and sold to nowhere. This is important when depicting more realistically the impact of the war. If you got food from a neighbor you are at war with or who otherwise opposes you, you might face a famine.
 
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Very happy to see Stability as a long term thing and very happy to see more sliders!

Will armies and navies be more expensvie to have overall? I seen "evolution" being mentioned in terms of military and I think that a common problem in EU4, that is income not really scaling with expenses in terms of the military could coincide with a big uptick in maitenence as standing armies become the norm in order to avoid a few nations having huge standing armies by even 1490. I assume that going to war or being at war will also carry negatives for your economy and stability ala the infamy reduction in Victoria II being reduced.
 
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Stability decaying to 0 instead of an equilibrium like in Imperator? Any diminishing returns to spending money on stability?

Imperator had a equlibrium at 50, and went from 0 to 100.

Project Ceasar has an equlibrium of 0, and goes from -100 to +100.

both work the same
 
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Are sliders really that useful? In EU4 the only economy slider that I ever touched in a meaningful way was the anti-corruption one, and only to keep my finances positive while still working on corruption.

The navy and the army sliders could've just had a maintenance toggle like forts for all I cared.
 
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Will the satisfaction equilibrium from taxation move somehow as time progresses? As in, 10% tax in 1400 will be seen as much more harsh than 10% tax in 1800. Historically the central governments just slowly levied more and more taxes on the population as their authority grew, and people got used to a degree of tax that would've caused a revolution 100-200 years previously.
 
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Will costs of buying and selling food be naturally summed up over your whole country, since it seems to be on a province base right now?
If yes, what is the difference to making a whole country-wide food pool?

Not sure porting food instantly from vladivostok to st.petersburg feels realistic.
 
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Hold on - does mercenary income mean we can hire out mercs to other countries? And will that be different from condottieri in EUIV?
 
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Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.
Is there the concept of deflation, or is minting a strictly linear progressive mechanic?

Also, since inflation is now a thing, it begs the question of different currencies. Is that a thing? Or is every nation treated as if it had its own currency, with its own inflation?

And lastly, not sure if you can talk about that yet, what does inflation do to trade here?
 
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Does money spent on stability ‘go’ anywhere? Or does it disappear into the ether?
lot of money goes into the ether when spent.
 
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What a talk, lots to go over!

Incomes

If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.

The bulk of most countries' income will come from taxes though, and taxes in Project Caesar are really different than before. First of all, every estate has a possible tax base, a concept we will delve into much more detail next week. This you can attempt tax from them, but every estate has a maximum tax you can take from them, which depends on your laws and their privileges, and how much power they have in your country. The higher the tax you take from them, the lower their satisfaction equilibrium becomes. Some examples of tax affecting things include the Catholic religion which limits the taxes on Clergy, and also the ‘Auxilium et Consilium’ estate privilege for the nobles, which reduces the tax they pay.

Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.
All of this makes sense. I'm not a huge fan of economic sliders, 90% of the time you want to either fully fund something or fund it as minimally as possible, same goes for taxation. Sliders represent a much finer grained control over the country than a state would have. For a good simulation of this era most taxes, especially taxes levied directly on estates, are raised as a levy in a lump sum, hopefully there's a sort of "war tax" mechanic as well. Minting is a nice one to see, akin to "debasing the coinage" perhaps. I am interested to see how inflation works in the game, if its just an increase in prices across the board that works well enough.
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Here we have the possibility to tax the commoners a fair bit more…
I'm interested in what I'm seeing here with other income. Interest is perhaps indicating that a state entity will be able to make loans for interest to other states. Trade income might be a kind of Tarriff system, potentially a tax on internal trade, as existed in some countries during the timeframe of the game. Diplomacy might be through diplomatic gifts, war reparations, etc. Mercenary Income, I suppose that means a kind of condottieri system. And the odd one out is selling food. That's a weird one. Does this indicate that there are essentially two productions streams, food and everything else?
Expenses
We all do love gaining gold, but sadly we also have to spend it, and while we can reduce some of the spending, we can not completely avoid all of it.

First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase. There are advances, laws, and other things that impact how much you need to spend here.

Then we have the cost for your standing army and navy, where spending less reduces their fighting capability. This is nothing new to our GSG games, so I am not sure why I need to mention this here.

Fort Maintenance is another common economic expense from our games, which is here as well. If you don’t pay, garrisons don’t tend to stick around.

Culture, this is an entirely new concept, which will become available in the Age of Renaissance, where you can invest money to get [TO BE TALKED ABOUT LATER], while also impacting your prestige.

You can also decide how much you wish to spend on your colonial charters, which is a new system we will talk about later this year.
Court expenses are interesting, this may replace the advisor expenses? A way to buy up legitimacy is helpful, though, may make it a non-issue for powerful states, which it wasn't, would like to see more on legitimacy in time. Was that also a M&T feature? I forget. Public spending on arts in the Renaissance is a fun mechanic, also depends on implementation, but making art its own system as opposed to minor events has potential.
Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well. Stability in itself ranges from +100 to -100, and will decay towards 0 on its own. There are two other ways to impact your stability gain, besides investing gold as mentioned here. One of them relates to the cabinet system, but another is a more long-term impact from how your country is built up, as it is based upon how many clergy pops you have of your state religion compared to the total population.
I dislike buying stability, that feels too abstract to me. This is the first this that I just outright disagree with. Maybe this should just also be roped in with the Court expenses. I also think infrastructure should be a recurring expense. We know roads are going to be a part of the game, it shouldn't be a one-time expense to build.
There are other expenses as you can see below, but one important thing to mention is that provinces that lack food will try to buy it from the local market.
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Maybe maybe we should cut down on our fleet, and maybe we don’t need ALL those forts. Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough!
Looks like it mostly mirrors income, Exploration being a separate entry here is interesting to note. Also buying food from the "local market". Does this mean there are regional and global markets? Also explains the the income on the other screen being "selling food on the local market". Weird for that to be shown on the province level, one might think that a state would be concerned about filling grain storage, and just go through what it has. The actual "surplus" grain should go to the wealth of one of the estates.
Next week we’ll talk more in depth about how the tax base functions, how the food system works, and some other related issues.
Hopefully next week clears up some answers, thanks for the TT!
 
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