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Tinto Talks # 7 -10th of April

Welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Talks, where we talk about really super secret stuff, that is hidden behind the code name of ‘Project Caesar’.

Today we’ll look into what makes up the economy in Project Caesar. Obviously, we’ll go into much more detail on some of these aspects in later Tinto Talks. Right now though, we’ll go through the incomes and expenses of a country in the game.

Every month you have running incomes and expenses that need to be balanced, and if your balance is positive, your gold is increased and you can use that gold to invest in other things.

And with balancing incomes and expenses, of course there are sliders. Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.

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Incomes

If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.

The bulk of most countries' income will come from taxes though, and taxes in Project Caesar are really different than before. First of all, every estate has a possible tax base, a concept we will delve into much more detail next week. This you can attempt tax from them, but every estate has a maximum tax you can take from them, which depends on your laws and their privileges, and how much power they have in your country. The higher the tax you take from them, the lower their satisfaction equilibrium becomes. Some examples of tax affecting things include the Catholic religion which limits the taxes on Clergy, and also the ‘Auxilium et Consilium’ estate privilege for the nobles, which reduces the tax they pay.

Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.

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Here we have the possibility to tax the commoners a fair bit more…


Expenses
We all do love gaining gold, but sadly we also have to spend it, and while we can reduce some of the spending, we can not completely avoid all of it.

First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase. There are advances, laws, and other things that impact how much you need to spend here.

Then we have the cost for your standing army and navy, where spending less reduces their fighting capability. This is nothing new to our GSG games, so I am not sure why I need to mention this here.

Fort Maintenance is another common economic expense from our games, which is here as well. If you don’t pay, garrisons don’t tend to stick around.

Culture, this is an entirely new concept, which will become available in the Age of Renaissance, where you can invest money to get [TO BE TALKED ABOUT LATER], while also impacting your prestige.

You can also decide how much you wish to spend on your colonial charters, which is a new system we will talk about later this year.

Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well. Stability in itself ranges from +100 to -100, and will decay towards 0 on its own. There are two other ways to impact your stability gain, besides investing gold as mentioned here. One of them relates to the cabinet system, but another is a more long-term impact from how your country is built up, as it is based upon how many clergy pops you have of your state religion compared to the total population.

There are other expenses as you can see below, but one important thing to mention is that provinces that lack food will try to buy it from the local market.
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Maybe maybe we should cut down on our fleet, and maybe we don’t need ALL those forts. Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough!

Next week we’ll talk more in depth about how the tax base functions, how the food system works, and some other related issues.
 
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Welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Talks, where we talk about really super secret stuff, that is hidden behind the code name of ‘Project Caesar’.

Today we’ll look into what makes up the economy in Project Caesar. Obviously, we’ll go into much more detail on some of these aspects in later Tinto Talks. Right now though, we’ll go through the incomes and expenses of a country in the game.

Every month you have running incomes and expenses that need to be balanced, and if your balance is positive, your gold is increased and you can use that gold to invest in other things.

And with balancing incomes and expenses, of course there are sliders. Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.

PPVyAPKRbkGNi9xIYE5C6NOVXDxOaKswGQxu3b9gcCc5b8PaXSO_4sODLXCE9t-2sCfSwMaYbao8Y8IpjpMcZ-3Li3cjmXxnCuQHY888ARMvCKmuZeZi9YONLLwVmt6lqVB8kIxvg2TKYmGp4hQuBro


Incomes

If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.

The bulk of most countries' income will come from taxes though, and taxes in Project Caesar are really different than before. First of all, every estate has a possible tax base, a concept we will delve into much more detail next week. This you can attempt tax from them, but every estate has a maximum tax you can take from them, which depends on your laws and their privileges, and how much power they have in your country. The higher the tax you take from them, the lower their satisfaction equilibrium becomes. Some examples of tax affecting things include the Catholic religion which limits the taxes on Clergy, and also the ‘Auxilium et Consilium’ estate privilege for the nobles, which reduces the tax they pay.

Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.

mcArWw0iiueMRbtuRVgr3tLJUkvlZI-4vzXpCOFRgy7tlJ95fi9Ul9F_NgppYsABpYjJhR5M4JOoFIVmdhU5hoPFnmSFkPQRswUoYAr4dDXFYK9zZmS9jr1q8YQmfKv1XoSmTwnR0t27uOq3NINFcDE

Here we have the possibility to tax the commoners a fair bit more…


Expenses
We all do love gaining gold, but sadly we also have to spend it, and while we can reduce some of the spending, we can not completely avoid all of it.

First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase. There are advances, laws, and other things that impact how much you need to spend here.

Then we have the cost for your standing army and navy, where spending less reduces their fighting capability. This is nothing new to our GSG games, so I am not sure why I need to mention this here.

Fort Maintenance is another common economic expense from our games, which is here as well. If you don’t pay, garrisons don’t tend to stick around.

Culture, this is an entirely new concept, which will become available in the Age of Renaissance, where you can invest money to get [TO BE TALKED ABOUT LATER], while also impacting your prestige.

You can also decide how much you wish to spend on your colonial charters, which is a new system we will talk about later this year.

Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well. Stability in itself ranges from +100 to -100, and will decay towards 0 on its own. There are two other ways to impact your stability gain, besides investing gold as mentioned here. One of them relates to the cabinet system, but another is a more long-term impact from how your country is built up, as it is based upon how many clergy pops you have of your state religion compared to the total population.

There are other expenses as you can see below, but one important thing to mention is that provinces that lack food will try to buy it from the local market.
2yQQjfeKu7xLnxbIQDUCpaLaDWxRaVY8r0ZloXbKvnsq3_jT82Ld10Zz_HlNw6AsPb2SLX3Gs2uZoac7oPPXpuJtQlw2FlhL0y5RZOf7vI7sKd2t7PcMBeg-sQi9H_BCSAU2EAlNEn6wP6ybQI4mmYE

Maybe maybe we should cut down on our fleet, and maybe we don’t need ALL those forts. Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough!

Next week we’ll talk more in depth about how the tax base functions, how the food system works, and some other related issues.
IMO, the expenses screen has too many icons. Each expense has 6! icons: an icon related to the matter, the cash icon, the effect icon, +, - and the slider icon. I would make the coin icon slightly smaller, it already contrasts a lot and it's not the main information. The + & - are way too prominent: the red contrasts quite strongly to the otherwise very blue frame. Added to that, the + & - have very thick outlines. Especially since I assuming people will use the slider more than the + & -, I would turn them into rather discrete arrows.
I also dislike slider itself: it's very thick and feels very lightly colored/very saturated, but that's probably because that's the only form of contrast it has with the background...
 
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Your post seems to suggest that each province has its own food market, with penalties to your treasury if each province cannot feed its population. This made me wonder how large cities are portrayed in this game. In EUIV London, Paris, Rome, etc. are their own named provinces. Will these now just be represented by a single location or will e.g. London still be a province with locations like The City of London, Westminster, Southwark etc. The later could be a nice way to mimic the growth of urban sprawl over time. However, it would probably work poorly with the provincially based food market, if the whole province was eventually one big city. Any chance for a picture of the location/provincial map of Southeast England to see how London is represented? Please! :)
Towns and cities are locations, part of a province, and provinces form areas. Check out Tinto Talks #2 for more detail. So even if London or Paris needs more food than their location can provide (and as a matter of fact Johan said that urban locations won't produce any food), food supply seems to be working on the provincial level, so other locations in the province will contribute and make up for it, while also having their own food related needs. If on the province level you produce less food than you consume then the province will try to import food from a market, about which we'll learn more down the line.

Edit: also, since towns and cities occupy a single location, you won't see any city sprawl.
 
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You know what would be a really cool idea? If you could tie an actual visual aesthetic mechanic with players choice to the amount the player spends on the court thing.

Think Civilization 3 with its palace building system, only actually challenging since getting those love the king/emperor/president days in that game was as easy as pie
Paying in-game currency for a completely useless feature showing how rich you are? Count me in. :cool:

More seriously, having visual effects from your actions sounds like a good idea. Of course, court expenses would have other impacts as well. Instead of Civ, I would think about the Royal Court in CK3.
 
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I really don't like "deleting forts", because in reality, nobody deleted forts, they were just abandoned. It is kinda absurd that often I found myself in situation that I will "delete" a fort due to economy, to build it again in the same place 30 years later.

Forts should decay and require renovation from time to time. Abandoned forts should decay faster, much faster, but still I should be able to restore old fort rather than build it from scratch. No sure how long it should take from abandoning fort to it becoming a complete ruin beyond repair, so building new one from scratch is cheaper.

Also forts (partially) destroyed in sieges should require rebuilding.
 
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I would love a DLC where I can easily change the geography. Adding for example a few extra islands in the Atlantic or connecting the black and caspian seas. I just want my imagination to run wild. The mods and tutorials for doing this with eu4 have always been a bit scary, and I’m willing to pay to make this big scary thing go away
 
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I think minting more coins shouldn't cause as much inflation if you have access to lots of gold. Issuing new coins of pure gold shouldn't be a problem, if done in moderation.

But if you don't, then minting usually means debasing the coins, which should cause much more inflation.
As I assume economy is not a closed system, inflation will be a bit abstracted. I guess gold is like any resource that you produce, the gold goes to the estates as income and then you tax this money, so this would be how coins from newly mined gold reach your coffeers without inflation.

Then this "minting" would actually mean debasing, which is indeed the main source of inflation for the time period. Before paper money, you mostly could not "issue new coins" because coins were made of precious metals themselves but rather you could lower the amount of gold per coin (and hope no-one notices, but they did): things like making coins a few miligrams lighter, using other metals to dilute gold amount in coins, making the outside pure gold but the middle another metal, etc.

That would be a perfectly fine system if minting = debasing.
 
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That makes me wish it was instead renamed to administration cost, because it doesn't really make sense in my head that suddenly you need to pay more for the same chef or meal ingredients just cause you took some village in the middle of nowhere, while it does make sense that you'd need to pay slightly more to keep the administrative network up and running.
If the White House wanted to hire me as a chef, I would expect them to pay more than if a village committee wanted to hire me. You can think of each situation as a market with one purchaser (White House/village committee) and one seller (me). The White House has a bigger budget, i.e., the demand is higher, so the price will be higher. Mutatis mutandis, it's a special case of the normal laws of supply and demand.

I wouldn't recommend anyone hires me as a chef though, unless they are growing weary of life.
 
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Can I just say - I love how clearly a lot of people wait for 2pm on Wed to just jump on to the Tinto Talks. Within minutes, there's dozens of comments. Hype is real bois!
 
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Regarding paying more directly for Stability: what does this represent? This seems like an abstraction at odds with the stated design goals from TT#1.

Also the whole food for money coming from and going to the crown seems weird...I'm sure there's something I'm missing since Johan mentioned it's done that way to avoid exploits but I think there needs to be another way so that it's tied to estate income like other forms of taxation.
 
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"Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough" oh God, the number 200 itself gives me so much hype. also I hope reinforceing garrisons will depend on more than just if you pay them or not, finding people to put them in a fortress you just conquered somewhere far away shouldn't be easy and the eastiest way was propably to just have part of your army left there
 
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