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Tinto Talks # 7 -10th of April

Welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Talks, where we talk about really super secret stuff, that is hidden behind the code name of ‘Project Caesar’.

Today we’ll look into what makes up the economy in Project Caesar. Obviously, we’ll go into much more detail on some of these aspects in later Tinto Talks. Right now though, we’ll go through the incomes and expenses of a country in the game.

Every month you have running incomes and expenses that need to be balanced, and if your balance is positive, your gold is increased and you can use that gold to invest in other things.

And with balancing incomes and expenses, of course there are sliders. Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.

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Incomes

If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.

The bulk of most countries' income will come from taxes though, and taxes in Project Caesar are really different than before. First of all, every estate has a possible tax base, a concept we will delve into much more detail next week. This you can attempt tax from them, but every estate has a maximum tax you can take from them, which depends on your laws and their privileges, and how much power they have in your country. The higher the tax you take from them, the lower their satisfaction equilibrium becomes. Some examples of tax affecting things include the Catholic religion which limits the taxes on Clergy, and also the ‘Auxilium et Consilium’ estate privilege for the nobles, which reduces the tax they pay.

Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.

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Here we have the possibility to tax the commoners a fair bit more…


Expenses
We all do love gaining gold, but sadly we also have to spend it, and while we can reduce some of the spending, we can not completely avoid all of it.

First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase. There are advances, laws, and other things that impact how much you need to spend here.

Then we have the cost for your standing army and navy, where spending less reduces their fighting capability. This is nothing new to our GSG games, so I am not sure why I need to mention this here.

Fort Maintenance is another common economic expense from our games, which is here as well. If you don’t pay, garrisons don’t tend to stick around.

Culture, this is an entirely new concept, which will become available in the Age of Renaissance, where you can invest money to get [TO BE TALKED ABOUT LATER], while also impacting your prestige.

You can also decide how much you wish to spend on your colonial charters, which is a new system we will talk about later this year.

Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well. Stability in itself ranges from +100 to -100, and will decay towards 0 on its own. There are two other ways to impact your stability gain, besides investing gold as mentioned here. One of them relates to the cabinet system, but another is a more long-term impact from how your country is built up, as it is based upon how many clergy pops you have of your state religion compared to the total population.

There are other expenses as you can see below, but one important thing to mention is that provinces that lack food will try to buy it from the local market.
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Maybe maybe we should cut down on our fleet, and maybe we don’t need ALL those forts. Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough!

Next week we’ll talk more in depth about how the tax base functions, how the food system works, and some other related issues.
 
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I am not sure i am fond of this multi-tax slider per estate, on top of the different sliders per tax type (base tax, tariffs trade tax, production tax, …)

Is it not more efficient to have just one slider for all estates, since they already have privileges which affect their taxation or exemption ? (As in eu4, exemption for certain tradegoods, or exemption of tariffs…)
What about when you also dhimmies and janissaries etc etc (if you play mods that add estates for example)… do you end up with 10 tax sliders ?
 
I'm worried about the project after this Talk. Strength of the GSG games, especially those that take very long time, is adaptability to your political/diplomatical situation. It would be a shame to see the project become Victoria where choice of a Nation (and its neighbours) does not really require different playstyle.

Will countries differ enough to influence the gameplay or it will be 'Country X has Y modifier so slider Z will need to be set slightly more to the right for the whole game'.
 
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Not sure about spending money to directly increase stability. Feels a bit gamey to me, like what exactly am I spending money on, and how is it increasing my stability? Maybe instead you could have a pay off dissenters button or whatever other ways you can pay your way to stability.
 
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A little idea: Suppose there are subcultures that could emerge, for instance, if Sweden were to conquer Novgorod, the culture of Novgorod might gradually transform into a semi-Swedish Slavic culture. I'm curious about the possibility and of a new colonial system featuring intriguing mechanics. For instance, instead of fully colonizing a state, one could claim it, simallare way the Indans do in eu4 in order to paint the provinces of interest. Additionally, implementing mechanics for deporting excess population from one province to a colony incase of overpopulation. It would also be fascinating if colonies with high liberty desires gradually shifted towards their own distinct cultures. For example, if Spain conquers Mexico and converts it to Castilian/Spanish culture, but Mexico develops a high liberty desire, it might slowly revert to Mexican culture. After gaining independence, these colonies would face the challenge of consolidating their nations, much like the struggles of the USA with the South or the eventual dissolution of Gran Colombia due to the inability to assimilate its diverse subcultures.
 
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If fort maintenance is a slider, i assume that would change the ammount of garrison that the forts will have
transating it to eu4 numbers, a fort with 9k max garrison would have 4500 if the slider was at 50%
will we be able to change this on a fort by fort basis? or it will be the same % to all the forts in the entire nation? or maybe even a system like the eu4 one where we tick the forts we want to be always on and the slider only affects the rest
 
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You can make great coins in copper! :p

Locally to were I grew up (in Sweden) famous poem about a couple who saved for 6 years during the Great Northern War to get married only for their copper coins to become worthless as they ceased to be legal tender just as they had saved enough. Maybe a good flavour event if you have been minting alot recently or something.

https://litteraturbanken.se/skolan/poesi-forfattare-carl-snoilsky-pa-varnamo-marknad/

look at their little statues

perokersti.jpg
 
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their satisfaction equilibrium
I feel that should be the opposite. Increasing taxes should upset your estates immediately, but over time they might get used to the new reality (at least if they can manage their essential basic needs like bread for peasants and diamond encrusted gloves for the nobility)

I guess it's a deliberate choice to prevent too much chaos from players that play around with the sliders too much, but I'd feel you should be rewarded for planning ahead and introducing your tax increase in several steps to make it more acceptable
 
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So I see that each estate appears in the income pannel with its own tax slider...
For the sake of mad modders, could an estate be completely untaxable? As in, not even appear in the income pannel?
Could an estate be subsidized or cost money, and appear in the expenses tab instead? (increasing its loyalty equilibrium, incentive to provide levies...)
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Why do I need to pay for food from my state budget?
Soviet pfp, wants peasants to starve. Yep things checks out.Lol
on a more serious note, in others games with food system, if a place isn't producing enough food, then the ruler must diver food from places with abundant food to places that are lacking in food to make sure the people don't starve to death. Usually this process incurrs a cost on the budget.
So this feature makes sense
 
If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.
Hi Johan,

Would we be able to set a tax rate per province? If so, would we be able to tax each estate differently in the province? It could work if there is a default rate, that the player can change if the province is unruly, or leave alone if the player doesn't want to deal with that level of granularity.
 
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@Johan , a man after me own heart...

Finally, a game I can really sink my teeth into...


Alucard Meme.jpg
 
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Lets be very real here, everyone is gonna call it ducats regardless, just like in every game.

Id refer to it as Florins personally, since this game dips beneath the veil of what is considered the late-medieval age closer to 0.ad, compared to its predecessor, both currencies were used at the time (the first english florins were struck in 1344) and generally Italy will have a much richer time period to be experienced.

I'm a bit concerned when it comes to the UI. It looks a bit mobilegame-ish to me, for the lack of a better word.
Similar concerns, the resolution of how they are packed ontop of one another looks like something you would scroll down to access with many different boxes of data like a phone game on the most space economical UI. Most of the red expenditure text also is hard to read against the subdued blue.

I hope we don't have to buy extra gold with in-app transactions so our country doesn't starve.
 
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"Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins."

Will it be related to population?
If population grows and you don't print money(or you print money slower than population grows) it could mean deflation.
If population declines then it should increase inflation (even if you don't print money. as there is the same amount of money for lower number of people).
 
I believe that the reduction in inflation should have some proportionality to the natural increase in population (births/deaths). This to represent the increase in demand (population) in relation to the increase in supply (currencies).
 
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