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Tinto Talks # 7 -10th of April

Welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Talks, where we talk about really super secret stuff, that is hidden behind the code name of ‘Project Caesar’.

Today we’ll look into what makes up the economy in Project Caesar. Obviously, we’ll go into much more detail on some of these aspects in later Tinto Talks. Right now though, we’ll go through the incomes and expenses of a country in the game.

Every month you have running incomes and expenses that need to be balanced, and if your balance is positive, your gold is increased and you can use that gold to invest in other things.

And with balancing incomes and expenses, of course there are sliders. Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.

PPVyAPKRbkGNi9xIYE5C6NOVXDxOaKswGQxu3b9gcCc5b8PaXSO_4sODLXCE9t-2sCfSwMaYbao8Y8IpjpMcZ-3Li3cjmXxnCuQHY888ARMvCKmuZeZi9YONLLwVmt6lqVB8kIxvg2TKYmGp4hQuBro


Incomes

If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.

The bulk of most countries' income will come from taxes though, and taxes in Project Caesar are really different than before. First of all, every estate has a possible tax base, a concept we will delve into much more detail next week. This you can attempt tax from them, but every estate has a maximum tax you can take from them, which depends on your laws and their privileges, and how much power they have in your country. The higher the tax you take from them, the lower their satisfaction equilibrium becomes. Some examples of tax affecting things include the Catholic religion which limits the taxes on Clergy, and also the ‘Auxilium et Consilium’ estate privilege for the nobles, which reduces the tax they pay.

Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.

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Here we have the possibility to tax the commoners a fair bit more…


Expenses
We all do love gaining gold, but sadly we also have to spend it, and while we can reduce some of the spending, we can not completely avoid all of it.

First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase. There are advances, laws, and other things that impact how much you need to spend here.

Then we have the cost for your standing army and navy, where spending less reduces their fighting capability. This is nothing new to our GSG games, so I am not sure why I need to mention this here.

Fort Maintenance is another common economic expense from our games, which is here as well. If you don’t pay, garrisons don’t tend to stick around.

Culture, this is an entirely new concept, which will become available in the Age of Renaissance, where you can invest money to get [TO BE TALKED ABOUT LATER], while also impacting your prestige.

You can also decide how much you wish to spend on your colonial charters, which is a new system we will talk about later this year.

Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well. Stability in itself ranges from +100 to -100, and will decay towards 0 on its own. There are two other ways to impact your stability gain, besides investing gold as mentioned here. One of them relates to the cabinet system, but another is a more long-term impact from how your country is built up, as it is based upon how many clergy pops you have of your state religion compared to the total population.

There are other expenses as you can see below, but one important thing to mention is that provinces that lack food will try to buy it from the local market.
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Maybe maybe we should cut down on our fleet, and maybe we don’t need ALL those forts. Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough!

Next week we’ll talk more in depth about how the tax base functions, how the food system works, and some other related issues.
 
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So more in the direction of a royal (or whatever the title would otherwise be) guard as a small troop that is constantly available to the top dog?

Yes, for most countries thats how it is at the start.
 
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Out of curiosity, from who are we taking loans ? (besides countries/players loaning to us as thats not a reliable thing)

We will talk more about loans next week
 
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Excess gold from the new world was a huge factor in bankrupting the Spanish Empire. Tons of gold makes gold less valuable. No real different from the Weimar Republic printing tons of marks in the post-WWI era where money became essentially worthless and people would burn it since it was cheaper than wood or coal.
Exactly. If I could turn back time as a Spanish ruler I would avoid the huge gold extraction because the inflation from gold actually ruined the economy. While the considered "worthless" provinces North of Florida that Spain didn't want ended up richer in the end despite not having precious minerals, to the benefit of Spain's rivals.

It would be nice to decide what trade good to focus on, regardless of what the comparative advantage (what good is prominent) is in that particular location/province, as EU4 forces a single good per province. This would require Project Caesar to not have a single trade good per province, but a small list of goods each with their own abundance level in that location.

And of course, regulating the goods in our market would not sit well with the burgher estate, who would probably prefer to freely choose the good with comparative advantage. Some agricultural colonies in the Spanish Empire were restricted to produce crops the empire as a whole needed but that weren't too suitable for their land. This decreased the colony's potential wealth, and that was an important factor in the desire for independence. Angrier burghers in your colonies -> greater liberty desire.

Trade in this game could be so interesting.
 
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Exactly. If I could turn back time as a Spanish ruler I would avoid the huge gold extraction because the inflation from gold actually ruined the economy. While the considered "worthless" provinces North of Florida that Spain didn't want ended up richer in the end despite not having precious minerals, to the benefit of Spain's rivals.

It would be nice to decide what trade good to focus on, regardless of what the comparative advantage (what good is prominent) is in that particular location/province, as EU4 forces a single good per province. This would require Project Caesar to not have a single trade good per province, but a small list of goods each with their own abundance level in that location.

And of course, regulating the goods in our market would not sit well with the burgher estate, who would probably prefer to freely choose the good with comparative advantage. Some agricultural colonies in the Spanish Empire were restricted to produce crops the empire as a whole needed but that weren't too suitable for their land. This decreased the colony's potential wealth, and that was an important factor in the desire for independence. Angrier burghers in your colonies -> greater liberty desire.

Trade in this game could be so interesting.
Not the gold or even inflation as such.
But rather being infiltrated by parasititical advisors and pressure groups drawn there by the gold.
People that drew Spain into endless 3rd, 4th ... 12th party forever wars and no one needed to be reasonable or logical or to be anything other than fanatically belligerent all the time; they did afterall have the absolute hegemon with infinite money on their side. And not rushing in with ever more debt would be treason to spanish values, jesus and whatnot ... or so the gullible and foolish actually believed it when silvertongued fanatics spoke,

Well nothing is infinite. And between unbalanced investments into higher yield (MONEY) over neccesary yields (everything else) the whole rotten cardhaouse inevtably collapsed with miserable food/arms/ship etc capabilities exposed. Never mind that the money did run out in the end.

Its something of a gross simplification to say gold ruined Spain. Lack of wisdom did. Just not spending more gold than the crown actually had in the treasury would have been a small start. Borrowing isnt normal.
Starts to sound like a story that could be placed into any age with the names changed just a little.
 
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Welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Talks, where we talk about really super secret stuff, that is hidden behind the code name of ‘Project Caesar’.

Today we’ll look into what makes up the economy in Project Caesar. Obviously, we’ll go into much more detail on some of these aspects in later Tinto Talks. Right now though, we’ll go through the incomes and expenses of a country in the game.

Every month you have running incomes and expenses that need to be balanced, and if your balance is positive, your gold is increased and you can use that gold to invest in other things.

And with balancing incomes and expenses, of course there are sliders. Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.

PPVyAPKRbkGNi9xIYE5C6NOVXDxOaKswGQxu3b9gcCc5b8PaXSO_4sODLXCE9t-2sCfSwMaYbao8Y8IpjpMcZ-3Li3cjmXxnCuQHY888ARMvCKmuZeZi9YONLLwVmt6lqVB8kIxvg2TKYmGp4hQuBro


Incomes

If we start with income, you have trade-related incomes, which is a system we will delve deep into in early May, as well as diplomatically related income. You also gain gold from provinces (not locations) that sell surplus food they can not store in their local market. Neither of these you directly control with any slider though.

The bulk of most countries' income will come from taxes though, and taxes in Project Caesar are really different than before. First of all, every estate has a possible tax base, a concept we will delve into much more detail next week. This you can attempt tax from them, but every estate has a maximum tax you can take from them, which depends on your laws and their privileges, and how much power they have in your country. The higher the tax you take from them, the lower their satisfaction equilibrium becomes. Some examples of tax affecting things include the Catholic religion which limits the taxes on Clergy, and also the ‘Auxilium et Consilium’ estate privilege for the nobles, which reduces the tax they pay.

Finally, for something that has existed in some older of our games, we have minting. Now what is that you may ask? Minting is the possibility to get more money by printing more coins. It just has the slight drawback of increasing your inflation the more you do it.

mcArWw0iiueMRbtuRVgr3tLJUkvlZI-4vzXpCOFRgy7tlJ95fi9Ul9F_NgppYsABpYjJhR5M4JOoFIVmdhU5hoPFnmSFkPQRswUoYAr4dDXFYK9zZmS9jr1q8YQmfKv1XoSmTwnR0t27uOq3NINFcDE

Here we have the possibility to tax the commoners a fair bit more…


Expenses
We all do love gaining gold, but sadly we also have to spend it, and while we can reduce some of the spending, we can not completely avoid all of it.

First of all, we have the Cost of the Court. This is something that is directly correlated to the economic base of your country, and if you spend less gold than expected, your legitimacy, or equivalent applicable government power, will decrease over time, and the more you spend, the more legitimacy can increase. There are advances, laws, and other things that impact how much you need to spend here.

Then we have the cost for your standing army and navy, where spending less reduces their fighting capability. This is nothing new to our GSG games, so I am not sure why I need to mention this here.

Fort Maintenance is another common economic expense from our games, which is here as well. If you don’t pay, garrisons don’t tend to stick around.

Culture, this is an entirely new concept, which will become available in the Age of Renaissance, where you can invest money to get [TO BE TALKED ABOUT LATER], while also impacting your prestige.

You can also decide how much you wish to spend on your colonial charters, which is a new system we will talk about later this year.

Finally, the last thing you can impact with a slider is your investment in stability. The cost for how much your investments are needed depends on the size of your country, with different laws and societal values impacting it as well. Stability in itself ranges from +100 to -100, and will decay towards 0 on its own. There are two other ways to impact your stability gain, besides investing gold as mentioned here. One of them relates to the cabinet system, but another is a more long-term impact from how your country is built up, as it is based upon how many clergy pops you have of your state religion compared to the total population.

There are other expenses as you can see below, but one important thing to mention is that provinces that lack food will try to buy it from the local market.
2yQQjfeKu7xLnxbIQDUCpaLaDWxRaVY8r0ZloXbKvnsq3_jT82Ld10Zz_HlNw6AsPb2SLX3Gs2uZoac7oPPXpuJtQlw2FlhL0y5RZOf7vI7sKd2t7PcMBeg-sQi9H_BCSAU2EAlNEn6wP6ybQI4mmYE

Maybe maybe we should cut down on our fleet, and maybe we don’t need ALL those forts. Our standing army of 200 brave footmen is enough!

Next week we’ll talk more in depth about how the tax base functions, how the food system works, and some other related issues.
Many countries have federal or feudal systems in which some taxes are collected and spent at the local level without any action from the central government. This could be simulated in such countries by having minimum levels of tax, and minimum levels of stability, culture, and cost of court expenses.
 
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Sounds Awesome, im excited. One thing I was wondering about tho. Its a little obscure and i know dsnt sound like the most exciting part of a video game... but I would love to see the economy and tax system get fleshed out. Like how tax was administered, what types of taxes they used, who was responsible for collecting them, etc. Cuz i think its a super important and interesting part of this period. I mean how could states get powerful if they didn't have taxes all figured out, right? Like when you say tax is it like a tax on land? An excise tax on goods? Tariffs and Customs tax? Class exempted taxes? A free yearly gift?Arbitrary and ridiculous taxes targeted at a certain class haha, cuz these are all relevant to the period and the socio-economic standing of each individual class. I think it would be interesting to try and have to combine or use different types of taxes to get the desired taxation effect. Also how about tax institutions like the the tax farmers? (Please tell me the Fermier General will be in the game :) ). Do taxes get paid in kind, like based on feudal dues, or can you make the switch to monetary rents on land? Are peasants allowed to have commons, or should they be enclosed for better taxation? What rights do the nobles and clergy have to administer and collect taxes? So many questions... And i am going on a bit of a rant now haha. But anyway i know early modern tax administration sounds lame, and not like something someone would pay to do, but i promise its more interesting than it sounds and like would make the game that much more interesting and multi-faceted. and ofc i dont expect yall to integrate all this into your game, but im just throwing a few suggestions out of things i think might be cool. Anyway if you get to me give it a think... and lmk if you plan on doing any of these. Overall looks great tho!
 
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Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Ages coming back. They were one of the most board-gamey things added to EU4, so if EU5 is including them when its direction is supposed to not be board-gamey then...well...that's a miss in terms of design. It always felt weird that I'd need to complete specific objectives that were totally arbitrary for the age (stuff like have 3 personal unions...wut...) just to get bonuses and then suddenly BOOM we're in a different age and the bonuses disappear and now I need to unify my culture and become Protestant. For EU4's gameyness and the nature (however flawed) of the gameplay revolving around endless bonus stacking it makes sense even if the system had its warts, but in EU5 the concept of the world just suddenly entering a new age I think will feel extremely out of place and fundamentally against the design of the game.
I personally never minded the boardgameyness of EU4, I actually am in the minority that likes and prefers it. Although the EU4 Age objectives get kinda boring after a while. So I am not against Ages per se. I just strongly oppose using the Renaissance in a game that spans the whole world.

But your point stands that with the stated game design aims clearly defined Ages wouldn't necessarily make sense.
 
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same stuff, i just call it gold, as thats what its been called in the code since first alpha of eu1.
I've always wondered... why did you pick Ducats over Florins? I thought Florins were more widely distributed?
 
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Johan, I am curious about overall bureaucracy expenditure. In the beginning the country spends more in the court but eventually a bureaucratic caste is developed as the centuries pass. This can become an huge expenses in late game. This will be included in the cost of the court?
 
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I designed Imperator.
You’re allowed to have strong opinions about your past self Johan, it’s ok :).

People are obviously referencing Vicky 3 with its 5 point budget system though. Personally I don’t actually mind it even though I hated Imperator’s budget options. The fact that it’s basically a slider anyways is probably why. Still prefer actual sliders though. The extra granularity has no real downsides for me as a player, so if there aren’t good coding based reasons against it, which I suspect is the case in Vicky 3 as it uses integers on those not!sliders, I’ll take the slider every time.
 
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I prefer buttons (like Vicky3 tax 5-level) rather than sliders.

At least I want a slider with buttons on it
 
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