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Tinto Talks #9 - 24th of April 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, this is the 9th of its kind, where we talk about our very secret game using the codename Project Caesar. And today we continue with the 3rd of the 4 talks we have now about the economy systems of the game. So lets start..

Constructions
In the previous development diary, we mentioned constructions and how you needed lumber for expanding the mines. In this game, almost all constructions require different materials to progress, and if that material is not available in the local market, then that construction is stalled until the material is available. This includes things like road building, shipbuilding, recruiting regiments, building buildings, or expanding R.G.O’s.

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Not sure why you want another monastery?

For example, building a light ship in the Age of Renaissance requires Naval Supplies, Lumber, Weaponry, Copper, Tin, and Metalworks, while moving your capital requires Paper, Books, Stone, Lumber, Marble, and gold.


Buildings
Buildings are rather important in Project Caesar. There are hundreds of different types of buildings, some can only be built in rural locations, and some require a town or city. Some can only be built in ports, and some can only be built in other countries. Some you can only build when there is no owner of a location. Lots of buildings are unique to cultures, regions, religions, or even to specific tags.

Some buildings can only have 1 level, some have a fixed cap, and some have a cap that scales with the population or development, and so on.

Buildings can also be categorized into three different categories: buildings that can produce goods, buildings that only give effects, and buildings that can only be built by the estates. Those pure estates usually have a drawback to them as well, and it's not easy to remove them

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Definitely not something we are all that keen on having in here.. it does increase demands for some goods though..

So what about producing buildings then? This is where the truly fun parts of the economy start. Project Caesar has a large amount of different goods. We currently have about 70 different ones that have different needs, some are needed for the military, some are needed solely by pops, some are needed for buildings, and so on.

Producing Buildings in towns and cities go from guilds and workshops to manufactories and mills at the of the game. These include everything from Paper Makers Guilds to Foundries. A producing building outputs one or more types of goods.

Finally, we have buildings that are purely giving an effect. These include Granaries that increase how much food you can store, libraries that increase literacy, different types of forts, buildings that train manpower, port buildings to help with shipbuilding, and much more.

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Some claim you can build Stockades of wood, but we trust only stone!

Almost all buildings though, have a production method, which impacts how they work.

Production methods
All buildings have at least one production method slot with one production method, but many have different methods in each slot, and there are plenty of buildings with multiple production method slots.

What is a production method then?
A production method is a list of goods that are required for a building to function. There are two categories of production methods, those that produce something and those that do not.
As an example, a Castle does not produce any goods, but it still requires Stone, Metalworks, Weaponry, and Tar to function, and if it does not get those goods, then the Castle will not function properly. The effectiveness of a building is based on the lowest available percentage of goods present, and it will only purchase and use required materials in that percentage required. If the market cannot supply enough resources, then it will not work.

The output of the producing building is also scaled by the percentage mentioned above.

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There are a few options here, but only wood pulp would be profitable here, probably because of the great supply of lumber in this market..

And of course, you can automate the production method selection, which will adapt it on a monthly basis based on what resources are available and what would be profitable. The UI also allows for macro decisions regarding production methods

Other important aspects
Every building requires employed pops to function as well, and those that require “upper class” pops like burghers, clergy, and nobles, also increase the potential for them in the location, making pops slowly promoted. This can be slightly awkward as powerful nobles or clergy construct more buildings that make them more numerous and powerful.


Producing buildings that are not profitable will be closed, and pops will work in other buildings, however, you can always subsidize a building if you require the goods or other benefits it gives.

Speaking of profit. The profit of a building is added to the Tax Base of a location, split among the power of the population in the location.

You can always close and open a building, if you want to manipulate prices, or if you want your pops to work with other things, and you don’t want to destroy a building permanently.



We mentioned last week about different ways to get raw materials, and one way to get it, besides trade, is through a set of rural buildings. These include Lumber Mills that you can build in any wood or forest location to produce lumber, sheep farms, stone quarries, and many more.

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Yeah, this requires some input.. Might be worth it..


There are stockpiles of goods, but those are in the market. There are buildings you can build that increase the amount they can store, as if you do not have the goods required for a building, unit, or construction, those will not function.

Speaking of markets, that is something we will talk about more next week when we delve deep into the trade system.
 
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This may have been covered before, but with the tax being taken from the estates, is that intended to change with centralisation that occurred during the absolutism section of the games time period? is it going to introduce a new estate to represent the "states" bureaucracy or are the estates still going to receive the same proportion of available tax, but get taxed at a much higher rate to represent the lack of privileges they have?..... or some other better method??
 
We all know that feudal lords were has very much influence in '-especially central- Europe. As Johan mentioned 2 weeks ago, Hungary is a powerful country in start of the date of 1337 especially to its neighbours. But even Hungary is a strong country to its europenian neighbours, how much is it strong when you compare to Golden Horde? The important thing is here that the people and leaders in europe were not out for conquest. As a result of this reason even the byzantine empire which were the strongest state in europe couldnt stand against Ottomans. People get me angry because i talk historical facts :D
There is a difference between you saying 1337 was dark age of Europe and byzantine getting beaten by ottomans (and by venetian and and others)

Dark age is a period that happened way before the start date, so thats not an historical fact you talked
 
Ottoman Sultanate
dynamic names are in

we have 5 different government types in the game

  • Monarchy
  • Republic
  • Theocracy
  • Steppe Horde
  • Tribe

These, together with country rank, government reform, and local flavor gives countries names like “Crown of Aragon,” “Kingdom of Sweden,” “Principality of Wales.”

i think it works like this
Crown of Aragon = flavor kingdom rank
Kingdom of Sweden = generic kingdom rank
Principality of Wales= flavor duchy rank
 
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Different buildings needing different materials to build them? <3
Now that would be a nice addition to Vicky3.

This is shaping up to be an all-time favourite. And I've been playing Paradox games since EU2 came out.
 
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how does it work?
A charitable endowment, so it could be a school, or a park, or something. Though it wasn't just used within the Ottoman Empire. Then again, it's a weird suggestion, because how would you portray that, anyway?
 
A charitable endowment, so it could be a school, or a park, or something. Though it wasn't just used within the Ottoman Empire. Then again, it's a weird suggestion, because how would you portray that, anyway?
Super low maximum taxes collectable from non-dhimmi estates which is something the ottos did suffer from. And any attempts at raising the taxes revealed a fragile economy built up that couldnt carry burdens. Instead the ottos had to rely on the dhimmi tax to fund themselves and other buildings.
Such uncollected taxes would flow to the construction of the usual suspect buildings maintained by waqf_s.

There were some reforms in the end, do correct me if mistaken, but i am under the impression the waqfs were part of the strong resistance to change re the nonexistant tax collection.


EDIT. Would work best as a law im sure would be well entrenched and much demanded by the righteous.
 
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While I think this system adds realism, I'm afraid it's going to turn into a medieval Vicky. And while that would fit some "countries", a lot more would be feel very strange to me. In eu4 (completely random example) i love how differently tribes, hordes and Western European kingdoms play. Imagining that the difference would only be in some other production methods with slightly tweaked numbers would make me... Quite sad.
 
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Oh glorious Johan, are you able to tell us whether this will be using the Clausewitz engine? Can we expect to see more multi-threading and less monocore-reliance than in previous games?


They have being doing so already, ck3, imperator and Victoria 3 are a thing and they all use a Jomini which is an improvement of Clausewitz
 
We all know that feudal lords were has very much influence in '-especially central- Europe. As Johan mentioned 2 weeks ago, Hungary is a powerful country in start of the date of 1337 especially to its neighbours. But even Hungary is a strong country to its europenian neighbours, how much is it strong when you compare to Golden Horde? The important thing is here that the people and leaders in europe were not out for conquest. As a result of this reason even the byzantine empire which were the strongest state in europe couldnt stand against Ottomans. People get me angry because i talk historical facts :D
You talk confusion, I really cannot grasp your argument. Facts say that Mongolian armies were stopped by hungarian and polish ones, they could not manage to conquer india neither to bring mamluks and anatolian turks into submission. Other than that, what is your argument again?
 
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While I am assuming this is portraying hemp, I know I am going to get tired of this joke. Perhaps they should switch to any of the other plants that were cultivated for their fiber like Flax or Jute for the picture.
not a joke, grown primarily around ladoga in 1930 (die guter die erde, semjonov)
Id expect cotton and flax to show up too with sheepfarms expected as a alternative for cloth manufacturies.

..i have made a fairly likely 70 goods list :p
not printed anywhere, all on pen and paper. A implied goods being jewellery, mints being another expected building to at least having been on a drawing board except economically speaking mints are kinda expected to go bankrupt as gold/silver values will outpace the mint income due to other uses. Which i found extra funny as its a irrational outcome that is also inevitable due to set inputs. A paradox if you like.
 
While I think this system adds realism, I'm afraid it's going to turn into a medieval Vicky. And while that would fit some "countries", a lot more would be feel very strange to me. In eu4 (completely random example) i love how differently tribes, hordes and Western European kingdoms play. Imagining that the difference would only be in some other production methods with slightly tweaked numbers would make me... Quite sad.

Do you seriously think that in the whole game the only thing that is gonna make different gameplays is different production methods? xD

Thats just the overview of buildings, we already know different cultures and tag have lots of different goverment forms, mechanics, and different playstyles that will go far beyond anything EU4 could portray so i dont know what you are talking about.
 
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I love how it look but it also seams to be quite complex so a quick suggestion here, what if players could activate some sort of beginner mode where the choices that an AI in your situation would pick, such as what to build, how to produce, what technology to pick etc. I think it would significantly lower the time to get into the game.
 
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You talk confusion, I really cannot grasp your argument. Facts say that Mongolian armies were stopped by hungarian and polish ones, they could not manage to conquer india neither to bring mamluks and anatolian turks into submission. Other than that, what is your argument again?
Yes they got stopped. But i am not talking about this. The thing that i say is Europenian countries are becoming op just after like 50 years in Eu4. No matter how much your military is strong, no matter if you are in last tech level,and no matter how much your commanders are good, you can not win War against countries in europe if you are in another tech level except western. There is a pip system which you can not change and this system makes them more powerful than you this is the thing that not making sense. And if we are talking about golden horde, the reason why russia become so powerful is that Timur defeated Golden horde. So what i mean to say is taking a small countries in europe and make them the most powerful country on earth should not be that easy
 
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