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Tinto Talks #9 - 24th of April 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, this is the 9th of its kind, where we talk about our very secret game using the codename Project Caesar. And today we continue with the 3rd of the 4 talks we have now about the economy systems of the game. So lets start..

Constructions
In the previous development diary, we mentioned constructions and how you needed lumber for expanding the mines. In this game, almost all constructions require different materials to progress, and if that material is not available in the local market, then that construction is stalled until the material is available. This includes things like road building, shipbuilding, recruiting regiments, building buildings, or expanding R.G.O’s.

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Not sure why you want another monastery?

For example, building a light ship in the Age of Renaissance requires Naval Supplies, Lumber, Weaponry, Copper, Tin, and Metalworks, while moving your capital requires Paper, Books, Stone, Lumber, Marble, and gold.


Buildings
Buildings are rather important in Project Caesar. There are hundreds of different types of buildings, some can only be built in rural locations, and some require a town or city. Some can only be built in ports, and some can only be built in other countries. Some you can only build when there is no owner of a location. Lots of buildings are unique to cultures, regions, religions, or even to specific tags.

Some buildings can only have 1 level, some have a fixed cap, and some have a cap that scales with the population or development, and so on.

Buildings can also be categorized into three different categories: buildings that can produce goods, buildings that only give effects, and buildings that can only be built by the estates. Those pure estates usually have a drawback to them as well, and it's not easy to remove them

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Definitely not something we are all that keen on having in here.. it does increase demands for some goods though..

So what about producing buildings then? This is where the truly fun parts of the economy start. Project Caesar has a large amount of different goods. We currently have about 70 different ones that have different needs, some are needed for the military, some are needed solely by pops, some are needed for buildings, and so on.

Producing Buildings in towns and cities go from guilds and workshops to manufactories and mills at the of the game. These include everything from Paper Makers Guilds to Foundries. A producing building outputs one or more types of goods.

Finally, we have buildings that are purely giving an effect. These include Granaries that increase how much food you can store, libraries that increase literacy, different types of forts, buildings that train manpower, port buildings to help with shipbuilding, and much more.

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Some claim you can build Stockades of wood, but we trust only stone!

Almost all buildings though, have a production method, which impacts how they work.

Production methods
All buildings have at least one production method slot with one production method, but many have different methods in each slot, and there are plenty of buildings with multiple production method slots.

What is a production method then?
A production method is a list of goods that are required for a building to function. There are two categories of production methods, those that produce something and those that do not.
As an example, a Castle does not produce any goods, but it still requires Stone, Metalworks, Weaponry, and Tar to function, and if it does not get those goods, then the Castle will not function properly. The effectiveness of a building is based on the lowest available percentage of goods present, and it will only purchase and use required materials in that percentage required. If the market cannot supply enough resources, then it will not work.

The output of the producing building is also scaled by the percentage mentioned above.

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There are a few options here, but only wood pulp would be profitable here, probably because of the great supply of lumber in this market..

And of course, you can automate the production method selection, which will adapt it on a monthly basis based on what resources are available and what would be profitable. The UI also allows for macro decisions regarding production methods

Other important aspects
Every building requires employed pops to function as well, and those that require “upper class” pops like burghers, clergy, and nobles, also increase the potential for them in the location, making pops slowly promoted. This can be slightly awkward as powerful nobles or clergy construct more buildings that make them more numerous and powerful.


Producing buildings that are not profitable will be closed, and pops will work in other buildings, however, you can always subsidize a building if you require the goods or other benefits it gives.

Speaking of profit. The profit of a building is added to the Tax Base of a location, split among the power of the population in the location.

You can always close and open a building, if you want to manipulate prices, or if you want your pops to work with other things, and you don’t want to destroy a building permanently.



We mentioned last week about different ways to get raw materials, and one way to get it, besides trade, is through a set of rural buildings. These include Lumber Mills that you can build in any wood or forest location to produce lumber, sheep farms, stone quarries, and many more.

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Yeah, this requires some input.. Might be worth it..


There are stockpiles of goods, but those are in the market. There are buildings you can build that increase the amount they can store, as if you do not have the goods required for a building, unit, or construction, those will not function.

Speaking of markets, that is something we will talk about more next week when we delve deep into the trade system.
 
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if you dont have it already, there is this article on jstor if its gonna be of any help


and youve done a better job than the turkish guy already. i bet he would have translated it as aq qoyunlu qara qoyunlu "states"
Unfortunately it doesn't look like that'd be of too much help, unfortunately.

A shame that the resources that I was able to find on the realms that the Qara Qoyunlu interacted with were always better than resources on the Qara Qoyunlu themselves. I've got books on the Jalayirids and the Aq Qoyunlu, but all I've got on the Qara Qoyunlu is a chapter in a book that's completely in Turkish.

Honestly the book on the Aq Qoyunlu is really good. Even includes in the opening a whole discussion on the notion of legitimacy for Islamic states and the evolution over time from a prophetic or caliphal model to that of a sacral model, and what that actually meant.

The book on the Jalayirids, meanwhile, goes deep into the Mongol conquest of Persia and the Ilkhanate. It's also a really good book.

Why can't I find one just as good on the Qara Qoyunlu?
 
Yes they got stopped. But i am not talking about this. The thing that i say is Europenian countries are becoming op just after like 50 years in Eu4. No matter how much your military is strong, no matter if you are in last tech level,and no matter how much your commanders are good, you can not win War against countries in europe if you are in another tech level except western. There is a pip system which you can not change and this system makes them more powerful than you this is the thing that not making sense. And if we are talking about golden horde, the reason why russia become so powerful is that Timur defeated Golden horde. So what i mean to say is taking a small countries in europe and make them the most powerful country on earth should not be that easy
It is not indeed, and your approach of using absolute statements for history and the game is not correct. YES it is harder to win wars outside of the western tech group in 1750, definitely not impossible at all. EU4 is a board game, never forget.
 
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It is not indeed, and your approach of using absolute statements for history and the game is not correct. YES it is harder to win wars outside of the western tech group in 1750, definitely not impossible at all. EU4 is a board game, never forget.
Yes it is almost actually. I remember my 300k Ottoman army couldnt beat 150k french army in the year of 1756. Our commanders were equal, geographical conditions were equal, My disipline were 120 their was 115 and our morale were same. But the dice was always giving them more and i deleted the game in that day cause this is bullsh1t. And everyone knows that factor just some guys which are europenian refusing it.
 
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And everyone knows that factor just some guys which are europenian refusing it.
I'm (obviously) not European and I can tell you that pips do not matter, or matter so little that the player over AI advantage negates it completely.
 
I'm (obviously) not European and I can tell you that pips do not matter, or matter so little that the player over AI advantage negates it completely.
Every player knows that if you are not in Western tech group, the game turns into a suffering in the late game. Thats why expect europe states, nobody playing after 17.century. You can think pip is a not problem in your head, but in my country if there is a 50k eu4 player, maybe 50 people keep playing after 1600s. And i understood that when i tried to play until game finish. Its just impossible you can't a win a single war even if you have 2 times bigger army than your enemy, the game makes you lose.
 
Every player knows that if you are not in Western tech group, the game turns into a suffering in the late game. Thats why expect europe states, nobody playing after 17.century. You can think pip is a not problem in your head, but in my country if there is a 50k eu4 player, maybe 50 people keep playing after 1600s. And i understood that when i tried to play until game finish. Its just impossible you can't a win a single war even if you have 2 times bigger army than your enemy, the game makes you lose.
I have won a war against Western tech group countries in the late game with literally every single other tech group. Again, pips do not matter, and if you lose to the AI often you should rethink how you play the game during wars. If I can beat the Ottomans' 100k army with Anatolian tech as a 40k strong QQ, you can absolutely beat a Western European country with half your men.
 
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Yes it is almost actually. I remember my 300k Ottoman army couldnt beat 150k french army in the year of 1756. Our commanders were equal, geographical conditions were equal, My disipline were 120 their was 115 and our morale were same. But the dice was always giving them more and i deleted the game in that day cause this is bullsh1t. And everyone knows that factor just some guys which are europenian refusing it.
Yours is delayed ragequit
 
So this might have been asked before but there are so many comments that I might miss it.
With castles needing stone in the market I can understand at the early start but towards the more prevelant use of cannons the raw cost of making and replacing cut stones became a bit too high and brick was more readly used, plus there where areas that did not have a ready access to stone or stone cutters. So my question would be if the requirements for a castle can be both stone and brick or if that changes with tech?
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In previous dev diaries you said that you will be getting rid of abstract mechanics not rooted in real world, does it mean that there will no longer be great wonders mechanic or will it be changed to something close to Imperator Rome system where you'll decide about
bonuses and it's just a regular building that is only more costly and time consuming
 
I was curious about the way goods affect the effectiveness of a building, because if it is flat out decided everywhere that the lowest availability of an input good is the effectiveness it would make building that don't produce things act a bit strange. I mean, not all goods function similarly.

It would be fun if, say in the case of a castle if a castle lacks all of its metalworking, it shouldn't become 0% efficient if it still has weaponry. Maybe efficient down to a certain minimum. Conversely, if a castle has metalworking but no weapons it should become quickly completely inefficient to 0%, depending on whether weapons means weapons stockpiles, or all weapons, in use and in stockpile.

One other thing would be maintenance, or crucial things like stone. Missing stone for a short time should barely affect a castle's efficiency, less so than missing for the same amount of time the weapons it needsm. However, missing stone for a long time, or suffering enough decay from sieges should render a castle ruined or inactive, with costs to reactivate, or rebuild. Because a castle that reached 100% decay, or 0% efficiency due to lack of stone is basically a ruin and having 1% stone should not make it 1% efficient. Up to a certain repair threshold it should remain 0% efficient, until sufficiently repaired. And the threshold might want to have a buffer. Like, a castle that just fell to <10% efficiency or decay shouldn't start back up at 10%, but 20-30%.

The idea of goods having an efficiency decay accelerator and an importance or minimum sounds fun. Although, it may be a bit taxing.
 
I think it could be interesting that the upper classes as events they could ask us if they could build a building (they could pay us for the terrain or offer a percentage of the goods they will build for example).
Obviously the crown could find some good reason for requisitioning the building of this burgher's property (like creating fake acussations or so).
 
If the prices of the goods used to make the paper is less than the price it get from selling the paper at the market (to whomever, your own pops, buildings or a trader or another countries pops in same marker or whatever.), then that difference is the profit.
Sorry if this already has been answered, but do I get it right that all the produced goods (here: paper) automatically go to the market to be sold? Is there no way to directly use it in another production method that needs paper? I am thinking of a situation where the market has scarce paper supply and another country uses their greater merchant power to buy all the paper my country is producing. Or is it just the excess (that you dont need for your PMs and construction and so on) that gets sold at the market?
 
please make it less Victorian and more M&T
well... at least M&T will have some work to do
can't wait for this game but you know.... Their system is really really good
bring pixel based economy
 
Just been seeing the raw materials on the maps talks and tought of posting in this thread as well: Why "medicaments" are a raw material? Shouldn't it be herbs or some other material name used in the manufacturing of these obviously transformed good? It's like making "weapons" or "glass" a raw good.

In the medieval period the medicine making process was down to popular knowledge of herbs and spices. Later we have the knowledge of the Islamic world and the Renaissance brought to medicine making, including the use of that famous predecessor of chemistry (yeah: alchemy), which was famous for using a myriad of goods, including gold and silver salts for example (not that any of it was more effective, but mainly more dangerous!).

Anyways, "medicaments" should be a good produced by an apothecary building, later a hospital perhaps, and the "herbs" good can maybe used up raw and in a production method along with some others like spices, mineral goods or add some opium to the raw materials mix, since there is evidence of its use since the neolithic.

I'm not way an expert on medieval or early modern medicine manufacturing, just a physician comfortably practicing in the 21st century who got this pet peeve with it being a raw resource and not a manufactured one.

Really hope you will change it in the final game!
 
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Just been seeing the raw materials on the maps talks and tought of posting in this thread as well: Why "medicaments" are a raw material? Shouldn't it be herbs or some other material name used in the manufacturing of these obviously transformed good? It's like making "weapons" or "glass" a raw good.

In the medieval period the medicine making process was down to popular knowledge of herbs and spices. Later we have the knowledge of the Islamic world and the Renaissance brought to medicine making, including the use of that famous predecessor of chemistry (yeah: alchemy), which was famous for using a myriad of goods, including gold and silver salts for example (not that any of it was more effective, but mainly more dangerous!).

Anyways, "medicaments" should be a good produced by an apothecary building, later a hospital perhaps, and the "herbs" good can maybe used up raw and in a production method along with some others like spices, mineral goods or add some opium to the raw materials mix, since there is evidence of its use since the neolithic.

I'm not way an expert on medieval or early modern medicine manufacturing, just a physician comfortably practicing in the 21st century who got this pet peeve with it being a raw resource and not a manufactured one.

Really hope you will change it in the final game!

In this forum we discussed many ways to solve the problem of spices being treated like useless little shits by the evil Johan, while apparently dates, allume and soy beans are the most important resource to define economy and history in the modern era. One of the proposed solutions is to consider the low-value spices as medicaments (curcuma, herbs, mustard...), while giving full representation only to some spices.
 
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