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Tinto Talks #9 - 24th of April 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, this is the 9th of its kind, where we talk about our very secret game using the codename Project Caesar. And today we continue with the 3rd of the 4 talks we have now about the economy systems of the game. So lets start..

Constructions
In the previous development diary, we mentioned constructions and how you needed lumber for expanding the mines. In this game, almost all constructions require different materials to progress, and if that material is not available in the local market, then that construction is stalled until the material is available. This includes things like road building, shipbuilding, recruiting regiments, building buildings, or expanding R.G.O’s.

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Not sure why you want another monastery?

For example, building a light ship in the Age of Renaissance requires Naval Supplies, Lumber, Weaponry, Copper, Tin, and Metalworks, while moving your capital requires Paper, Books, Stone, Lumber, Marble, and gold.


Buildings
Buildings are rather important in Project Caesar. There are hundreds of different types of buildings, some can only be built in rural locations, and some require a town or city. Some can only be built in ports, and some can only be built in other countries. Some you can only build when there is no owner of a location. Lots of buildings are unique to cultures, regions, religions, or even to specific tags.

Some buildings can only have 1 level, some have a fixed cap, and some have a cap that scales with the population or development, and so on.

Buildings can also be categorized into three different categories: buildings that can produce goods, buildings that only give effects, and buildings that can only be built by the estates. Those pure estates usually have a drawback to them as well, and it's not easy to remove them

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Definitely not something we are all that keen on having in here.. it does increase demands for some goods though..

So what about producing buildings then? This is where the truly fun parts of the economy start. Project Caesar has a large amount of different goods. We currently have about 70 different ones that have different needs, some are needed for the military, some are needed solely by pops, some are needed for buildings, and so on.

Producing Buildings in towns and cities go from guilds and workshops to manufactories and mills at the of the game. These include everything from Paper Makers Guilds to Foundries. A producing building outputs one or more types of goods.

Finally, we have buildings that are purely giving an effect. These include Granaries that increase how much food you can store, libraries that increase literacy, different types of forts, buildings that train manpower, port buildings to help with shipbuilding, and much more.

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Some claim you can build Stockades of wood, but we trust only stone!

Almost all buildings though, have a production method, which impacts how they work.

Production methods
All buildings have at least one production method slot with one production method, but many have different methods in each slot, and there are plenty of buildings with multiple production method slots.

What is a production method then?
A production method is a list of goods that are required for a building to function. There are two categories of production methods, those that produce something and those that do not.
As an example, a Castle does not produce any goods, but it still requires Stone, Metalworks, Weaponry, and Tar to function, and if it does not get those goods, then the Castle will not function properly. The effectiveness of a building is based on the lowest available percentage of goods present, and it will only purchase and use required materials in that percentage required. If the market cannot supply enough resources, then it will not work.

The output of the producing building is also scaled by the percentage mentioned above.

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There are a few options here, but only wood pulp would be profitable here, probably because of the great supply of lumber in this market..

And of course, you can automate the production method selection, which will adapt it on a monthly basis based on what resources are available and what would be profitable. The UI also allows for macro decisions regarding production methods

Other important aspects
Every building requires employed pops to function as well, and those that require “upper class” pops like burghers, clergy, and nobles, also increase the potential for them in the location, making pops slowly promoted. This can be slightly awkward as powerful nobles or clergy construct more buildings that make them more numerous and powerful.


Producing buildings that are not profitable will be closed, and pops will work in other buildings, however, you can always subsidize a building if you require the goods or other benefits it gives.

Speaking of profit. The profit of a building is added to the Tax Base of a location, split among the power of the population in the location.

You can always close and open a building, if you want to manipulate prices, or if you want your pops to work with other things, and you don’t want to destroy a building permanently.



We mentioned last week about different ways to get raw materials, and one way to get it, besides trade, is through a set of rural buildings. These include Lumber Mills that you can build in any wood or forest location to produce lumber, sheep farms, stone quarries, and many more.

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Yeah, this requires some input.. Might be worth it..


There are stockpiles of goods, but those are in the market. There are buildings you can build that increase the amount they can store, as if you do not have the goods required for a building, unit, or construction, those will not function.

Speaking of markets, that is something we will talk about more next week when we delve deep into the trade system.
 
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not a joke, grown primarily around ladoga in 1930 (die guter die erde, semjonov)
Id expect cotton and flax to show up too with sheepfarms expected as a alternative for cloth manufacturies.

..i have made a fairly likely 70 goods list :p
not printed anywhere, all on pen and paper. A implied goods being jewellery, mints being another expected building to at least having been on a drawing board except economically speaking mints are kinda expected to go bankrupt as gold/silver values will outpace the mint income due to other uses. Which i found extra funny as its a irrational outcome that is also inevitable due to set inputs. A paradox if you like.
I know that hemp is not a joke. I am just going to be tired of reading the forums and people talking about needing their weed mana to make paper mana.

That is why I was suggesting changing the image to one of the other various plants that were grown for fibers
 
There are several questions in this thread about Project Caesar's engine. From TT1

We even named our internal "empty project for clausewitz & jomini", that we base every new game on Marius.

That would imply that the engine is still Clausewitz & Jomini?
 
We all know that feudal lords were has very much influence in '-especially central- Europe. As Johan mentioned 2 weeks ago, Hungary is a powerful country in start of the date of 1337 especially to its neighbours. But even Hungary is a strong country to its europenian neighbours, how much is it strong when you compare to Golden Horde? The important thing is here that the people and leaders in europe were not out for conquest. As a result of this reason even the byzantine empire which were the strongest state in europe couldnt stand against Ottomans. People get me angry because i talk historical facts :D
Hungary around this time thrashed the Horde and conquered Moldavia from it.
 
I know this is a funny question but hear me out it’s related

Since specific religions will have special buildings and production chains will we have the possibility of making our own religions (I loved that feature in CK3) and if so can we have custom religious buildings with custom production chains from like a set list or something?
 
I think it's very cool to see how Johan and Wiz influence each other when it comes to the design choices of their games. I feel like they're pushing each other even forward as game designers.
 
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Resource Gathering Operation. Its basically a "pseudobuilding" for getting raw materials from a province/location.

its an acronym we've used since Vicky1.
Copy, thanks!

While I have you, do you know if EU5 will work with Macs?
 
Yes they got stopped. But i am not talking about this. The thing that i say is Europenian countries are becoming op just after like 50 years in Eu4. No matter how much your military is strong, no matter if you are in last tech level,and no matter how much your commanders are good, you can not win War against countries in europe if you are in another tech level except western. There is a pip system which you can not change and this system makes them more powerful than you this is the thing that not making sense. And if we are talking about golden horde, the reason why russia become so powerful is that Timur defeated Golden horde. So what i mean to say is taking a small countries in europe and make them the most powerful country on earth should not be that easy

This is simply not true.

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And if we are talking about golden horde, the reason why russia become so powerful is that Timur defeated Golden horde. So what i mean to say is taking a small countries in europe and make them the most powerful country on earth should not be that easy
To be pedantic, the Golden Horde was in the middle of an all-encompassing civil war for a solid... 20 years, before Timur supported Tokhtamysh's claim to the throne which re-empowered and reinvigorated the Golden Horde.

Tokhtamysh didn't get the memo that such an installation was to be a vassal to Timur (something that happens rather often with Timur, since his general approach was to say "you're my vassal" and then not show up for another 5 years). This led to his ouster, by Timur.

Also the Black Death did nothing especially great for the Golden Horde's armies as well.
 
Bilgiçlik taslamak gerekirse, Altın Orda, Timur'un Toktamış'ın Altın Orda'yı yeniden güçlendiren ve yeniden canlandıran taht iddiasını desteklemesinden 20 yıl önce, her şeyi kapsayan bir iç savaşın ortasındaydı.

Tokhtamysh, böyle bir kurulumun Timur'un tebaası olacağına dair notu alamadı (Timur'da oldukça sık olan bir şey, çünkü onun genel yaklaşımı "sen benim vassalımsın" demek ve ardından 5 yıl daha ortaya çıkmamaktı) ). Bu onun Timur tarafından görevden alınmasına yol açtı.

Ayrıca Kara Ölüm, Altın Orda'nın orduları için de özellikle büyük bir şey yapmadı

To be pedantic, the Golden Horde was in the middle of an all-encompassing civil war for a solid... 20 years, before Timur supported Tokhtamysh's claim to the throne which re-empowered and reinvigorated the Golden Horde.

Tokhtamysh didn't get the memo that such an installation was to be a vassal to Timur (something that happens rather often with Timur, since his general approach was to say "you're my vassal" and then not show up for another 5 years). This led to his ouster, by Timur.

Also the Black Death did nothing especially great for the Golden Horde's armies as well.
I didnt say black death effected golden horde and even golden horde was in a civil War, winner of civil war were gonna be turk-mongolian(golden horde)as well. Therefore russia wouldnt get powerful after 15.century
 
I didnt say black death effected golden horde and even golden horde was in a civil War, winner of civil war were gonna be turk-mongolian(golden horde)as well. Therefore russia wouldnt get powerful after 15.century
Honestly with how the civil war was going, Russia was already on its way from breaking out of the Mongol Yoke before Tokhtamysh showed up. After all, Russia did manage to get quite a victory right prior.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Russia was going to break out from the Mongol Yoke with or without Timur's help. In a sense, Timur delayed things a little bit by helping put a powerful leader back in control (Tokhtamysh), and then removing them later.

Now, if Tokhtamysh managed to end up in power in a no-Timur scenario (or just avoided pissing him off), that'd be a whole other matter.
 
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I didnt say black death effected golden horde and even golden horde was in a civil War, winner of civil war were gonna be turk-mongolian(golden horde)as well. Therefore russia wouldnt get powerful after 15.century
Actually, while I have you here... Would you mind translating something for me? I've had this small bit of text for a while now but never really been able to read it due to it being in Turkish. I know it's a bit much to ask, given that it's 100 pages long, but would you potentially be willing to take a look? I'll admit it's a bit of a bold assumption on my side, but consider it a shot in the dark given that you left in an automatic translation of what I wrote prior into Turkish that I'm assuming that you probably speak Turkish.

For context, it's on the various polities and entities in Anatolia around this game's start date. I'd love to be able to know how accurate PC's setup is given this text, but I just can't read it myself to compare.
 

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  • Anatolian Beyliks and the Aq Qoyunlu, Qara Qoyunlu Governments.zip
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Actually, while I have you here... Would you mind translating something for me? I've had this small bit of text for a while now but never really been able to read it due to it being in Turkish. I know it's a bit much to ask, given that it's 100 pages long, but would you potentially be willing to take a look? I'll admit it's a bit of a bold assumption on my side, but consider it a shot in the dark given that you left in an automatic translation of what I wrote prior into Turkish that I'm assuming that you probably speak Turkish.

For context, it's on the various polities and entities in Anatolia around this game's start date. I'd love to be able to know how accurate PC's setup is given this text, but I just can't read it myself to compare.
I was gonna sleep but i will look at in the morning :)
 
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translating
just put it thru deepl itll be better than his translation. the guy is using google translate of all things to be able to understand what you wrote. that text was illegible

to be pedantic = """bilgiçlik taslamak""" gerekirse
black death = kara """ölüm"""
installation = """kurulum"""
ouster = """görevden alınma"""
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4
4
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just put it thru deepl itll be better than his translation. the guy is using google translate of all things to be able to understand what you wrote
One, it's a PDF scan of a book written back in 1937 of Turkish, so it's not like you can just copy-paste the text (if I could I would've done it years ago). Two, I don't mind if he's using Google Translate to translate what I wrote into Turkish; it's the other way around that I care about.