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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #121 - Maps Maps Maps

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Greetings fellow map-starers! I am Lufthansi, one of the narrative designers on Victoria 3, and I’m here to talk about the upcoming map and pop setup changes for Sphere of Influence. Since there’s quite a few of them, let’s just jump straight into it.

Persia and Central Asia
The lands of Iran and Turan have gotten a much needed facelift for the upcoming expansion.
Say goodbye to the conspicuously modern-looking looking Afghanistan (bar Wakhan dongle) of 1.6, and say hello to your new best friends in the region: the emirates of Kabul, Kandahar, and Herat. These three Pashtun realms will be the main contenders for the struggle to unify Afghanistan under one banner, though the Uzbek khanates of Maimana and Kunduz might give them a run for their money.

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To their immediate south, the Khanate of Kalat’s influence in the region has grown considerably, with an enlarged Makran now starting as a Kalati vassal, standing in for the plethora of local Baluchi tribes that owed the Kalati Khans their allegiance.
Further east, the Sikh Empire’s borders have been redrawn to better reflect the situation in 1836 and the Nawabate of Bahawalpur has been established on the left bank of the Sutlej river. In the Eastern Hindu Kush, Chitral emerges as a new power, representing both itself and dozens of smaller statelets and tribes such as Hunza and the yet-Islamised ‘Kafiristan’.

In Central Asia proper, borders have been polished and shifted around slightly, with the most notable addition being the establishment of a decentralised Turkmen area, representing various Turkmen tribes outside Khivan control, chief among them the Tekke.

Persia has seen its starting territories further reduced, losing control of more of its coastline to Arab and Baluchi rulers and having to contend with a new vassal: the influential Sheikhdom of Muhammara, conveniently parked right on top of the country’s major oil reserves. (Surely nothing bad will ever come of this). Oh, and Persia is now blue (dabadee dabadi).

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In terms of state regions, there’s quite a few new ones, and we have tried our very best to toe the line between what is historically appropriate and what is recognizable to the modern eye. The state regions represent a mixture of historical provinces, borders, and cultural areas, so while the initial setup might look alien to some, to all you Durand line fans out there, I say: ‘fear not, there is still a way’.

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The old pop setup of Persia and Central Asia included many oddities, like the vast majority of Persian Jews and Armenians being slaves for some reason. This has now been rectified, and pop numbers and cultures for the entire region has been reworked, working off a motley collection of primary and secondary sources of varying trustworthiness as well as a good pinch of creative licence. You will also find three new cultures added to the region: Luri, Mazanderani, and Chitrali, each with their own accompanying country/releasable.

The Russian Empire
Another big change this patch will come in the form of a map rework to the Russian Empire and its surroundings. A whole lot of new states have been added to the game, and even more remoulded to better reflect the international, cultural, and administrative divisions of the time.

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Accompanying this state rework is another pop setup change. Primarily based on downscaled and modified data from the 1897 census, it adds a number of new cultures to the game, such as the Mordvins, Bashkirs, Chuvash, Udmurts, and the Buryat.

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The Baltic Governorates under General-Governor Carl Magnus von der Pahlen will also make their debut in this patch. Starting as a German-cultured puppet under the Russian Empire, it is there to reflect the unique cultural and political situation of the three governorates of Estonia, Livonia, and Courland.

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Of course, no map rework is complete without a slew of new releasables to populate it. I’m not going to list them all here, so feel free to look around and identify your own favourites!

East Asia
Sphere of Influence will also see the arrival of a much requested religion, namely Confucianism. Confucianism will start out as the state religion of China, Korea, and Vietnam, though they all retain large Buddhist minorities. (In Vietnam’s case with the Buddhists making up the majority of the population.) Due to a change in the countries’ law setup, China and Vietnam will both start out by tolerating their Buddhist subjects, whereas the Buddhist practitioners in Korea will be persecuted by the state, representing Korea’s historical anti-Buddhist movement.

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America and Australia
To all those still grieving the loss of Noongar some patches back, I bring good tidings: Noongar is back, and it brought some friends! Wati and Miring together help reduce Anglo control over the Outback, better reflecting the limited control settlers then enjoyed over the country’s interior.

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North America is also getting a bit busier, with the addition of the Seminoles of Florida (at long last), the Salish and Bannocks of the Western Plains, and the Athabaska of Alaska.

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The addition of the Seminole is also accompanied by a new starting Journal Entry for the United States, ‘The Seminole Wars’, detailing the grim conquest and eventual displacement of the Seminole peoples of Florida by the United States.

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Miscellaneous Changes
Some other changes include the beautification of the Southern Bessarabian strip ceded as part of Romania’s ‘All for One’ Journal Entry, and the addition of more straits around the Tierra del Fuego to sort out some colonisation wonkiness, which would cause some individual island provinces to not be colonised by either Argentina or Chile.

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Well, that’s all for now! I hope you are all as excited for Sphere of Influence as we are! See you all in the next developer diary where WHO WILL DO WHAT?

Editor's Note: We left this because it's funny. But next week the ‘WHAT’ our diary will be is the Changelog for 1.7 and Sphere of Influence, and the ‘WHO’ is writing it is Mikael! With that, have a Happy Thursday all!
 
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Love the map changes! I do wish some more changes were included for Canada, as I've posted before no settler had even set foot in Yukon at the game start and there were no settlements in Nunavut so both those states should be entirely uncolonized at game start and resources for all the northern states in Canada should be changed as for example Nunavut has no trees but plenty of whales which is the opposite of what is presented in game.

One request would be to change the name from Athabaska to "Dena" (used more in Alaska) or "Dene" (Used more in Canada), while it may be a bit more archaic to refer to these people as Athapaskans, the term Dene was well used in the historical timeframe such as by Edward Sapir who referred to the language family as Na-Dene. Furtherm Athapasca is actually a Cree word, and traditionally the Dena would not refer to themselves using a Cree word. "Athapaskan" is more often a linguistic grouping and all the nations of northern Canada and Alaska who speak "Northern Athapaskan languages" however, all speakers of this language family would refer to themselves as "Dene". Also historic Athabasca country is in northern Alberta and Saskatchewan centres around Lake Athabasca and the Athabasca river. Neither goes anywhere near Alaska so it seems a bit funny to name the area that. I would propose a term like "Denendeh" which means "Land of the people" as a state name for the Dene.
 
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1. Not a fan of the new Polish provinces.
2. Add Congress Poland, come on. I can understand your point about level of autonomy, though. Not a hill I'm willing to die on. Point one, though, definitely is.
For point 2, I see where they are coming from wrt Congress Poland, but it seems like an argument for puppeting them. As it stands I never see any Polish uprising (aside from Krakow which has a civil war every few years).

It seems that it's prime for an East India-like avoid uprising JE, with options for annexation, russification, or even allowing polonization (perhaps angering some Ukrainian pops)
 
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By laws? So there’re possibilities that Qing and Vietnamese might discriminate Mahayana pops, which is very unbelievable. Comparing to confucian, members of Aisin Gioro are more Buddhist instead of Chinese mixed native religion, which is called “Confucianism” now. We both know that it’s a mix of ancestor worship, Taoism and other strange things but it’s fine to call it Confucianism, since EUIV has done this before.

I have an offensive guess, that the main reason why a Confucianism is implemented, is that PDS decided to add an anti-Buddhist feature for Korea under the present mechanic. Please forgive me if it’s not.

Anyway, I do not want to make further rootless comments on the contents I’ve not played yet. I’m expecting the release day very much.
Vietnamese discriminating Mahayana pops would be historically accurate. The early Nguyen dynasty was repressive of Buddhism, putting heavy restrictions on the faith. Building pagodas and temples was forbidden and there were heavy demands on Buddhist monks.

I believe that at the start date Vietnam should actually be discriminating against Buddhists.
 
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We considered it, but decided against it. After the November Uprising of 1830-31, the level of 'autonomy' enjoyed by Congress Poland was so negligible that we felt it inappropriate to depict it as a personal union.
Can't Poland be at least a puppet? This part of Europe is really dire in terms of playable tags.
 
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I’m not sure if there’s any better reference, but the new Altai state is exactly the western part of Tannu Tuva, which is to say, perhaps better being filled with Tuvan people instead of the Mongols.
 
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The Australian map changes are very confusing. I understand it is to incrementally "better reflect" the actual control of the colonies, but the changes are trying to have their cake and eat it too. I imagine it's a performance consideration, but doing it half-way like this looks utterly bizarre and implies wrong things about the colonial territories and Aboriginal nations. Instead of doing it half-way like this, a more consistent interpretative rule about colonial claim or control could be better? i.e. All colonised, or mostly uncolonised.

I'd be happy to offer up the map changes (and colonization speed balancing) used in the Australia & New Zealand Flavor mod if that was a direction the team would want to take. With the map below, Victoria and New South Wales are usually fully colonised by the 1850s with South Australia and Queensland soon after and Western Australia around 1890s/1900, all being pretty historically accurate.

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The other strange thing is Kaurna. There are many Aboriginal tags you could include in South Australia, but the single one that probably shouldn't be is Kaurna because it takes up the space of the South Australian capital and is the only area that actually was colonised, so I'm surprised they stuck around after a map revisit. Using information from this website (also supported by this interactive map dating colonial-aboriginal encounters) we can see that by 1840 (excusing 1836 because the first settlers literally just arrived and technically not proclaimed as a colony until the end of the year) the area that Kaurna takes up in-game is where nearly all of South Australia's settlements are, including of course, the capital, Adelaide.

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Happy to collaborate or provide more historical sources if needed.
 
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I'm pretty concerned with the number of states added here.

Victoria III has an unfortunate tension in its game design between wanting to have very small, intricate states to simulate very minor border changes and historical claims, and the unfortunate reality that there is a soft lower limit on the number of pops that can be in any one state before the simulation stops working properly. Almost every DD has a post made under it about the economically worthless and barely functional states in the US, and while this discussion might be repetitive that doesn't mean its not valuable.

The number of states posted here does seem to be a big improvement in the granularity of the map, the ability to simulate real life tags and border disputes, and the ability to create alternate history scenarios. But considering many of these states are going to have a population in the tens of thousands, the low hundreds at best, means they won't be able to interact with the rest of the game's systems in a satisfactory manner.

Also I have to say I don't love how there is a lot of inconsistency in how many states any one area of the world gets. I know this is inevitable in a Paradox game that whoever is getting updated currently is receiving the most amount of love, but it's still not great when Afghanistan has 6 states while most of Africa and Asia have comparatively much fewer.
 
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Now that Alaska doesn't start as fully controlled by Russia (good) the border with Canada looks strange (bad). Northern Canada could use the same treatment as Australia and start out as decentralized states (but claimed by Canada to avoid border gore).
The Hail Columbia mod does this for Alaska, Canada, and the continental US, but errs on the side of too many decentralized states imo (Canada can't seem to settle it all, which is accurate but not visually pleasing)

However the mod does script things (as I guess vanilla V3 does) so US and Canadian settlement stay on the right side of the 49th parallel.

What I'd actually like to see is a more involved Oregon treaty settlement that has more potential outcomes (54.40 or fight, splitting Oregon/Wash for various infamy or improved relations outcomes)
 
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I'm not sure I follow. Unless you are playing a Command Economy (which granted, not that uncommon this being Russia after all), you can just "forget" about most states and focus on the ones you care about and let private investment do its thing (which again granted, is a bit brain-dead).
You can, but most people do not like to. People enjoy managing the stuff they have. Games are interactive media, the options are there, and the game encourages you to do so in both the tutorial and through the experience of playing. In game-language: you're supposed to be doing this stuff. So what you've said strikes me as a really odd argument. The defense you've come up with is essentially to just not interact with a significant and foundational portion of the game because the way it comes together in this (easily achievable, by just starting any game as Russia) case is unfun. Which is silly to me; ignoring a major component of the game shouldn't be the more fun solution than playing with it when the game is telling you to do it.

Plus, you really can't forget about a lot of things. You're talking about forgetting about construction. PM management and edicts remain wholly manual. Infrastructure is important enough that you kind of have to keep an eagle eye on it and not trust your unreliable populace to meet the need in time. Tax capacity is the player's job no matter what, although that's more a China issue than a Russia one.
 
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1. Not a fan of the new Polish provinces.
2. Add Congress Poland, come on. I can understand your point about level of autonomy, though. Not a hill I'm willing to die on. Point one, though, definitely is.
Exactly! The Kingdom of Poland (popularly called the Congress Kingdom) was a state that was in personal union with Russia (the Tsar of Russia was the king of Poland).

Just create such a state like you did with the Baltic Governorate - in the case of Poland, it has a greater historical basis! Simply put, the Congress Kingdom of Poland would have virtually zero autonomy in the game. Krakow could invest in fueling independence aspirations for the Polish Congress Kingdom as a center for the development of Polish independence movements. It may seem that this could significantly simplify the creation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but there are certainly ways to make it not so simple - the requirement to destabilize Russia so that the Kingdom of Poland could have an alone opportunity to fight for independence.

It is worth noting that many Polish agitators from the game's time frame are missing - it would take a long time to list all of them.
 
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I'm pretty concerned with the number of states added here.

Victoria III has an unfortunate tension in its game design between wanting to have very small, intricate states to simulate very minor border changes and historical claims, and the unfortunate reality that there is a soft lower limit on the number of pops that can be in any one state before the simulation stops working properly. Almost every DD has a post made under it about the economically worthless and barely functional states in the US, and while this discussion might be repetitive that doesn't mean its not valuable.
I think this is the biggest problem with the current Vic3 economic simulation - each state has a very different population and resource size, but the employees required for each level of building is the same, and the only thing that affects it is the PM. There are very few immigrants ingame at present, and the local price mechanic causes buildings and population to pay more for goods that are not produced locally (which will be eaten by the void).
This leads to some ridiculous consequences, such as some very small states where factories can never hire enough employees and can only rely on foreign goods instead of producing. It is even worse for some OPM, because if they don't join a larger market, they can't industrialize, otherwise the population in the subsistence buildings will decrease, the goods produced by the subsistence buildings will decrease, the living standard will decrease, and the radicals will increase, leading to civil war (if you pay attention, OPM is actually very prone to civil war). This leads to a ridiculous diplomatic consequence. If you play as a medium-sized tag like Egypt or Brazil, you will find that adjusting the aggressiveness setting to high will make your diplomatic environment safer, because in this setting the AI great powers (mainly GB and France) are very inclined to make OPM their vassal, and the latter's frequent civil wars will leave the former with no time to start a war.
 
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Some of this looks amazing, but others just, look like not as worked on versions of what popular mods have already done?
It makes me wish you had just reached out to the modders and incorporated their work instead of half covering the same ground.
 
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Oh shoot this is super late but maybe in a future patch make the Haida uncolonized at the start too. They are the islands off the coast of British Columbia between Vancouver and Alaska and weren't really colonized until a few decades after start.
 
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Welcome to Chinese Religious Demographic Data Club. The first rule of Chinese Religious Demographic Data Club is: you do not talk about where you got the Chinese religious demographic data from.

Jokes aside, how to depict the Chinese religious/philosophical 'system' in Paradox games has always been a difficult topic, especially since most of our games follow a mutually exclusive either/or approach to religion, which has great difficulties accommodating the more "pick-and-mix" approach to religion/philosophy that was and is the case for China.

V3's Confucian / Buddhist split relies on a set of assumptions that help split up the pops in Confucian and Mahayana pops, such as whether or not the pop is Han or not, if a state region is considered an especial hot-spot for Buddhist or Confucian practices, how rural or urban it is, or rough 'estimates' given in academic literature, etc.

I am more than open to feedback on the division here, so if you have any strong feelings about it, feel free to report them in the forums.
Confucianism is somehow Atheism. How will it be with State Atheism?
 
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Fantastic change, much better than having everyone be Buddhist. Though I do wonder what the basis is for these Buddhist vs. Confucianism percentages. A better solution would maybe to represent Chinese folk religion as "Shendao/Shenxian" and consider Confucianism and Taoism as part of it.


That's not exactly correct. Confucianism has a very much implied belief system in Tian/Heaven that is inherent to it, as well as mandated religious practices that come as part of the belief system. Confucianism does not only uphold a correct form of state governance but also a correct individual behaviour, a moral framework, religious practices that need to be upheld and a belief in Tian and Shangdi- all of this forms a theology. Confucianism also has a cosmology, that is shared with other Chinese native religions.
It's also important to note that many Chinese individuals throughout history, both scholars and emperors, called themselves exclusively Confucian and criticised or repressed Buddhism and Daoism.

It's a bit problematic to truly say that a given part of China is a "Confucianist" but I assume they're grouping in all Chinese folk religion under the framework of Confucianism, which is better than grouping them all under Buddhism.
This is what I partly agree. I believe the vast majority of Han Chinese are Buddhists while some social elites are Confucian. Confucianism is more aristocratical practice rather than more prevailing folk religions such as Zen Buddhism, Pure Land Buddhism, Taoism, or even Manichaeism-originated rebellious White Lotus.
 
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It's a tradition.
 
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Confucianism is somehow Atheism. How will it be with State Atheism?
The name of the God of Atheism is "No God", which is, probably, a certain type of Monotheism.

Confucianism just does not care whether there's any God, detities or not.

Atheism in Vicky3 is highly related to the political practice of nihilsm and socialism.
 
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