• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #17 - Migration

Thumbnail.jpg

Hello and welcome to yet another Victoria 3 dev diary. Today’s topic is Migration (meaning the movement of Pops between states), what role it plays in Victoria 3, and how it functions mechanically. There are two types of Migration in Victoria 3: Intra-Market Migration and Mass Migration, and we’ll be explaining both of these starting with Intra-Market Migration.

Intra-Market Migration is the movement of Pops between two States that are part of the same Market. Barring certain exceptions (such as slaves not being able to migrate, as covered in the previous dev diary), Pops are generally always able to move between States in the Market, though the number of individuals that are able to change their homes on a weekly basis varies based on factors such as the local Infrastructure and Market Access in the two States.

Which Pops migrate from and to what States depends on the Migration Attraction of each State. Migration Attraction is a value that is based on the average Standard of Living in the state, and modified by various factors such as over/underpopulation, unemployment/available jobs and so on. It is possible for a country to directly encourage Migration to a specific state through the ‘Greener Grass Campaign’ Decree, at the cost of some Authority. In general, Pops will move from States with a low standard of living and a lack of employment opportunities to states with a high standard of living and jobs to offer. States with a low population compared to the amount of available land are especially attractive to economic immigrants.

Kansas, already an attractive state for American settlers due to its sparse population, has been further prioritized for migration through the use of a Greener Grass Campaign decree
image1.png

Discrimination, too, plays a role in migration. Pops that are being discriminated against in a particular State, and have the opportunity to migrate to another State in that market where they would not be discriminated against (perhaps because of multiple countries sharing the same Market, and one of those countries having more liberal citizenship or religious laws) will take that opportunity in greater numbers, provided of course that there is an underlying economic reason for them to want to move there in the first place. After all, while enjoying voting rights is certainly nice, putting food on the table is higher on the agenda for most Pops.

Discrimination can also have the opposite effect: Pops that are already enjoying full citizen rights are generally going to need to be in pretty dire economic straits to consider moving somewhere where those rights are going to be taken away, and in the case of a Pop that is going to be discriminated against no matter where they go in the Market, they tend to stick to their cultural Homelands.

French colonial settlement policies means that their colony of Algiers receives a steady trickle of immigrants from mainland France every week
image2.png

So, what then of Mass Migration? Mass Migration is a mechanic introduced to try and model the migration of large amounts of people to places such as the US, Brazil and Australia in the 19th century. Mass Migration can happen when a particular culture experiences Turmoil, which is a product of having a large number of radicalized pops. A culture that has enough Turmoil to meet the threshold has a chance to create a Migration Target somewhere in the world, which is a flag set on a particular State that attracts huge numbers of migrants from that culture over the course of a limited timespan to that State and any States neighboring it.
Migration Targets are more likely to be created if the Pops in the culture have a low Standard of Living and high Literacy, and particularly likely to be created if there is widespread starvation among the Pops of that culture.

The selection of States for Migration Targets is based on a number of factors, including the state’s Migration Attraction, whether or not the culture is legally discriminated against in the country, and if there is a logical ‘path’ that Pops of the migrating culture would be able to follow from their Homelands to the target (such as trade routes). There is no inherent advantage in certain country ‘tags’ for who gets migrants - the US tends to get migrations because of availability of jobs and land combined with liberal citizenship laws, not because they have a built-in migration attraction bonus.

Fed up with economic hardship and political oppression in their homelands, a large group of Polish people have decided to try their luck at a new life in France
image3.png

There is one more aspect of migration that we’re only going to briefly touch on: Migration Policy. This is a group of Laws which lets you set the stance of your country on migration. For example, whether you want to promote the movement of people from your core lands to your colonies, attract skilled workers from other countries for your manufacturing economy, or even just minimize all migration (external and internal) as a way of maintaining your iron grip over the population. The reason we won’t be going into this today is because it’s currently in the process of being redesigned to this end (from a previous, much simpler set of laws). We’ll try to return to it at a later time!

With that said, we’ve reached the end of this dev diary, and in fact, the end of the current string of politics dev diaries, as next we’ll be changing our focus from inwards to outwards and talking about Diplomacy, on the topic of Prestige and Rank!
 
  • 241Like
  • 93Love
  • 13
  • 7
Reactions:
I know you mentioned that it's still a WIP so there's not much information on it yet, but do you plan to have policies to curb outward migration also? For example if I am playing as an old world monarchy, will there be a means by which I can try to prevent my pops from leaving for other countries?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Will there be Chinese migration to US, Canada, NZ and Australia following gold rushes and Taiping? V2 ignored this aspect of history.
Also will the game represent blackbirding in the pacific and Indian forced migration to British colonies in Africa and the Pacific as a labour force?

Discrimination policies sound good as they represent the head tax and etc laws. But it sounds like it might repeat V2s problem of migration and immigrant communities being whites only.

Also will there anything to stop minorities being assimilated regardless of ethnicity or discrimination? As again that lead in V2 to absolute assimilation which erased most migrant communities almost immediately and so fails to represent history

Thank you.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
That’s an interesting question, which also ties into something I’ve been wondering a lot about: land ownership. How well will the game be able to model the difference between a European style estate with a big landlord and a more American West style freehold?
You could have different ownership structures in production methods locked behind different laws. Like a freehold is farmers + labourers, with farmers getting the dividends. In estates you would add an aristocrat who gets the highest salary and the dividends. Would be tricky in the US, since some states would have aristocrats and some wouldn't? I guess you could have some law that's halfway between...
 
If there are enough wealthy Pops to markedly increase the average, then the immigrant will be hearing about the glorious country overseas where the streets are paved with gold, scrape together enough to embark to this promised land, but perhaps find themselves stuck due to poor social mobility once they get there. Sucks for them, but not unrealistic!
Relevant
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Will have a large population from a certain culture already in the destination place (i.e. a "community") be a factor in deciding the target of mass migration?

And will there only be a single target or more than one target?
No, countries have fixed primary culture (one or several) and this does not change other than if the country's definition changes (e.g. through forming a new nation). Discrimination law effects are measured against the primary cultures, so a large population of non-primary culture immigrants may demand equal treatment or pack up and move elsewhere, or even demand self-governance under certain conditions.
So, no dynamic culture, no way of finely managing cultures (a la imperator/Stellaris) other that a primary vs others binary? That is the most disappointing post I've read so far...

Also, can a revolution erm.... change the country's definition?
 
Last edited:
  • 6
  • 3
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Dev Diary #17....​

How many diaries will be released till we get any info about army, warfare and combat?

Likely to be much closer to release since warfare and combat are things they are still actively iterating on and haven't nailed it down yet in way that would allow them to tell us how it works and have that been final. I would guess it will be a few months until we get there. Wouldn't even be surprised if it's the last major aspect of the game they talk about.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
A few questions/comments:

Will there be any form of small-scale inter-market migration? Like could we see a few Spanish shopkeepers in Paris or a few American capitalists in Guangzhou that's not related to a horrifying collapse in the home country? Could the more economic intra-market migration be expanded to include this? (Like perhaps it not only checks states in this market, but also states in adjacent markets and also all current migration targets)

Can boring old poverty trigger mass migration? Or does there have to be some sort of big political/economic/military upheaval?

So mass migration can be triggered by really bad stuff happening in the homeland. But can it also be triggered by really good stuff happening in the target? (gold rushes and oil booms for example)

May I suggest a significant presence of that culture in a state should be a factor as well? Like Italians migrating to places where other Italians have already established for example. That way you create patches of minority cultures within the migration target, like Norwegians in the Dakotas and Irish in Massachusetts.
And I would recommend that maybe this should be based both on the percentage of a state that is that culture and also the gross number of people of that culture in a state. A 10% Lithuanian Montana will certainly get some more Lithuanians, but I'd bet a 5% Lithuanian New York will be getting a hell of a lot more (because there's probably a much bigger community there), while a 0% Lithuanian London (even with its huge pop) probably would get very few.

Also, would a secession movement be dynamically assigned a culture (an independent Lithuanian Minnesota for example), or would they be based on Homelands, or hardcoded such that "only these cultural groups can rebel from this country" (which would be a little disappointing).
 
Last edited:
So, no dynamic culture, no way of finely managing cultures (a la imperator/Stellaris) other that a primary vs others binary? That is the most disappointing post I've read so far...
That doesn’t seem like it would really fit the era. Can you think of any examples of this happening during the game’s time period?
 
So if I'm an autonomous subject (Norway/Finland/Cuba/etc), I might want to make myself a very attractive economic/political place to live to attract the working class from elsewhere in the market, thus building myself up at the expense of my liege?
Yes one of the benefits of being in another countries market :)
 
  • 26Like
  • 8Love
  • 4
Reactions:
I can spot a big exploit window on the mass migration mechanic, I will be prepared for immense Beifaren-ish culture shocks in the Americas. In the initial releases of the Vanilla game, of course. :D
 
That doesn’t seem like it would really fit the era. Can you think of any examples of this happening during the game’s time period?
I don't know how relevant it is (since it wasn't an independent country and all), but Singapore went from 45% Chinese and 32% Malay at game start to 75% Chinese and 12% Malay at game end.
 
Would be tricky in the US, since some states would have aristocrats and some wouldn't? I guess you could have some law that's halfway between...
I don't think that would be necessary. Although some laws and production methods may be tied together, I don't know why they wouldn't let you have a mixture of traditional ownership, private ownership, and worker's co-ops to suit your particular farming situation.

Will there be any form of small-scale inter-market migration?
Probably not:
We've considered and experimented with adjacency-based migration in the past, but ended up deciding not to have 3 distinct systems for migration in the game.... While cross-border migration as well as a steady trickle of global migrants are certainly not ahistorical, it is irrelevant for a player when the effect is very low and difficult to explain or do something about when it's already very high.... The effects of other forms of migration are also less relevant to model and would result in a lot of Pop fracturing (and performance problems) for no major discernible benefit.
The way the pop system works (any number of people can be represented by one pop, but it has to have a fixed culture and location), it highly encourages them to stack up similar people together and only use migration across cultural borders when you're talking about demographically relevant numbers of people. A handful of Spanish merchants in an American city doesn't really have any gameplay impact that would justify the added pop; thousands of displaced Spanish peasants turning up on your shores does.

Can boring old poverty trigger mass migration? Or does there have to be some sort of big political/economic/military upheaval?
Migration comes from Turmoil which comes from radical pops which can come from reductions in Standard of Living (though there are other sources of radicals). If your people are consistently poor, they're more or less inured to it (and probably don't have the resources to move anyway) but if a thriving economy goes bust, people will try to flee for greener pastures.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
So, no dynamic culture, no way of finely managing cultures (a la imperator/Stellaris) other that a primary vs others binary? That is the most disappointing post I've read so far...
Discrimination Laws are a bit more granular than just "primary vs others" and together with the two discrimination vectors (culture + religion) can create quite a bit of detail. Being able to effectively target your "culture management" with a finer legal instrument than that is both unrealistic and not particularly meaningful in terms of what it adds to the gameplay.

Having said that, it's well worth noting that our decision to make Primary Culture(s) static to the country tag is very intentional. In addition to being set in the revolutionary era, Victoria 3 is also set in the era of nationalism and the notion that culture = country, "natural" cultural homelands, pan-national sentiments, and so on are important themes. So in Victoria 3, culture and country are intrinsically connected as it would be nonsensical in this era for a nation-state to change its primary cultures while still retaining its fundamental national identity.
 
  • 57
  • 17
  • 10Like
  • 3
Reactions:
Can Mass Migration be triggered by less dramatic circumstances than starvation? Italy during the second half of the 19th century experienced a very significative emigration toward America, yet, despite widespread poverty, it wasn't so dramatic like the famine in Ireland.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Can Mass Migration be triggered by less dramatic circumstances than starvation? Italy during the second half of the 19th century experienced a very significative emigration toward America, yet, despite widespread poverty, it wasn't so dramatic like the famine in Ireland.
Mass Migration is triggered by average Turmoil in a culture, and Turmoil in turn comes from Radicalism and Discrimination. Radicalism gets particularly high in Pops that are starving, but for example if most Pops of a certain culture used to be really well off but then became oppressed and a lot poorer in their current country / countries, this could cause a Migration Target for them to go elsewhere as well.
 
  • 21
  • 5Like
  • 1Love
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Can migration cause a backlash at the destination? Or will this generally not happen, because they’ll probably pick someplace with plenty of job openings?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I played a little bit Vic2 and it was a fun game. However i do have some questions.

1. Is it possible to lets say promote your main language among other nation within your borders so you can eventually assimilate certain culture? For example German empire could promote German language in Posen/Poznan and make Poles learn it as secondary and under continued use they would eventually assimilate or some part of them. This question applies presuming that there will be something like that.

2. Is it possible for example to transfer or resettle population? Like if Russian empire decided to move Ukrainians to lets say in Central Asia?

3. This one is about Dynamic names. So lets say that player plays as Austria, can we see German localizations for states and cities? Like for example Ljubljana (Slovenian) > Laibach (German). Or if lets say Germany conquers Alsace-Lorraine it would automathicaly be renamed into Elsass-Lothringen, without the need for Reichsland decision. Or if Greece recovers Anatolia.
 
  • 3
Reactions: