• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Stellaris Dev Diary #54 - Ethics Rework

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Now that 1.4 is out, we can finally start properly talking about the 1.5 'Banks' update, which will be a major update with an accompanying (unannounced) expansion. As of right now we cannot provide any details on when 1.5 will come out, or anything about the unannounced expansion, so please don't ask. :)

Today's topic is a number of changes coming to ethics in the 1.5 update. Everything in this diary is part of the free update. Please note that values shown in screenshots are always non-final.

Authoritarian vs Egalitarian
One of the things in Stellaris I was never personally happy with was the Collectivism vs Individualism ethic. While interesting conceptually, the mechanics that the game presented for the ethics simply did not match either their meanings or flavor text, meaning you ended up with a Collectivist ethos that was somehow simultaneously egalitarian and 100% in on slavery, while Individualism was a confused jumble between liberal democratic values and randian free-market capitalism. For this reason we've decided to rebrand these ethics into something that should both be much more clear in its meaning, and match the mechanics as they are.

Authoritarian replaces Collectivist and represents belief in hierarchial rule and orderly, stratified societies. Authoritarian pops tolerate slavery and prefer to live in autocracies.
Egalitarian replaces Individualist and represents belief in individual rights and a level playing field. Egalitarian pops dislike slavery and elitism and prefer to live in democracies.

While I understand this may cause some controversy and will no doubt spark debate over people's interpretation of words like Authoritarian and Individualist, I believe that we need to work with the mechanics we have, and as it stand we simply do not have good mechanics for a Collectivism vs Individualism axis while the mechanics we have fit the rebranded ethics if not perfectly then at least a whole lot better.
2016_12_08_1.png

2016_12_08_5.png


Pop Ethics Rework
Another mechanic that never quite felt satisfying is the ethics divergence mechanic. Not only is it overly simplified with just a single value determining if pops go towards or from empire ethics, the shift rarely makes sense: Why would xenophobe alien pops diverge away from xenophobe just because they're far away from the capital of a xenophobic empire? Furthermore, the fact that pops could have anything from one to three different ethics made it extremely difficult to actually quantify what any individual pop's ethics actually mean for how they relate to the empire. For this reason we've decided to revamp the way pop ethics work in the following way:
  • Each pop in your empire will now only embrace a single, non-fanatic ethic. At the start of the game, your population will be made of up of only the ethics that you picked in species setup, but as your empire grows, its population will become more diverse in their views and wants.
  • Each ethic now has an attraction value for each pop in your empire depending on both the empire's situation and their own situation. For example, enslaved pops tend to become more egalitarian, while pops living around non-enslaved aliens become more xenophilic (and pops living around enslaved aliens more xenophobic). Conversely, fighting a lot of wars will increase the attraction for militarism across your entire empire, while an alien empire purging pops of a particular species will massively increase the attraction for xenophobic for the species being purged.
  • Over time, the ethics of your pops will drift in such a way that it roughly matches the overall attraction of that value. For example, if your materialist attraction sits at 10% for decades, it's likely that after that time, around 10% of your pops will be materialist. There is some random factor so it's likely never going to match up perfectly, but the system is built to try and go towards the mean, so the more overrepresented an ethic is compared to its attraction, the more likely pops are to drift away from it and vice versa.
2016_12_08_3.png


So what does the single ethic per pop mean in terms of how it affects pop happiness? Well, this brings us to the new faction system, which we will cover briefly in this dev diary, and get back to more in depth later.

Faction Rework
One thing we feel is currently missing from Stellaris is agency for your pops. Sure, they have their ethics and will get upset if you have policies that don't suit them, but that's about the only way they have of expressing their desires, and there is no tie-in between pop ethics and the politics systems in the game. To address this and also to create a system that will better fit the new pop ethics, we've decided to revamp the faction system in the following manner:
  • Factions are no longer purely rebel groupings, but instead represent political parties, popular movements and other such interest groups, and mostly only consist of pops of certain ethics. For example, the Supremacist faction desires complete political dominance for their own species, and is made up exclusively of Xenophobic pops, while the Isolationist faction wants diplomatic isolation and a strong defense, and can be joined by both Pacifist and Xenophobe pops. You do not start the game with any factions, but rather they will form over the course of the game as their interests become relevant
  • Factions have issues related to their values and goals, and how well the empire responds to those issues will determine the overall happiness level of the faction. For example, the Supremacists want the ruler to be of their species and are displeased by the presence of free alien populations in the empire. They will also get a temporary happiness boost whenever you defeat alien empires in war.
  • The happiness level of a faction determines the base happiness of all pops belonging to it. This means that where any pop not belonging to a faction has a base happiness of 50%, a pop belonging to a faction that have their happiness reduced to 35% because of their issues will have a base happiness of only 35% before any other modifiers are applied, meaning that displeasing a large and influential faction can result in vastly reduced productivity across your empire. As part of this, happiness effects from policies, xenophobia, slavery, etc have been merged into the faction system, so engaging in alien slavery will displease certain factions instead of having each pop individually react to it.
  • Factions have an influence level determined by the number of pops that belong to it. In addition to making its pops happier, a happy faction will provide an influence boost to their empire.
2016_12_08_4.png

2016_12_08_2.png


We will come back to factions in greater detail in a later dev diary, going over topics such as how separatists and rebellious slaves will work, and how factions can be used to change your empire ethics, but for now we are done for today. Next week we'll be talking about another new feature that we have dubbed 'Traditions and Unity'. See you then!
 
Last edited:
  • 367
  • 53
  • 17
Reactions:
Can you add some trait for race that doesn't mind slavery, like ants? Fanatic Authoritarian ant colonies need some happy slaves who have no intention on moving towards Egalitarian.
I'm currently picking at a mod that includes a trait that bestows 100% slavery tolerance to any species that has it.

It's not particularly difficult to set up.
 
After read this dev diary, I was like...

Part 1 - No sense of this change. More of this - if you "give" Authoritarian and Egalitarian, then why Colectiv cannot stay? Every ethic they give to us is base on human ethic. Colectiv, as a Hive Mind, is something beyond it. One mind, who order milions. And NO. It is not the same as Authoritarian, because...

Part 2 - So... my drons will change they ethic because ... reason? Again, you make every alien in game human. If I go road of F. Materialist + Colectiv, and purge someone, because they are not part of my hive, then my drons (some of them) will suddenly be attracted by mili/xenophobe ethic? And I, as a Hive Queen/King, I cannot say NO? Or I can, by purge them, and be hated by everyone? And more of this, my drons can be unhappy, because...

Part 3 - Realy?! Factions?! My drons will make faction? Sure, from whot I see on screen, I can have some positive effect when they are on good term, and bad if ... wait... I see this before, but "it's" name is different - Estate in EU4! Nope! I'am done!

If this "Traditions and Unity" diary will say something like - Faction, or lack of it etc, will depend on starting ethic - And I will read about it more, then maybe, Maybe, I will back to this game.

Stop making every alien race Human!

I mentioned this before, but I feel like exotic government types that can't truly be compared to human counterparts needs some sort of specialized gameplay. Right now very collectivist empires don't really feel different anyway. Basically expansions or DLC which introduce different styles entirely:

- Make a Standard Empire (current normal Empire creation).
- Create a Hive Mind.

Later more unique stuff could be created like

- Create a Native Spaceborn species.
- Create an AI/mechanical species that has taken over its previous masters planet.

All of these can of course also be created by the AI, though they're somewhat rarer
 
  • 9
Reactions:
The Authoritarian vs. Egalitarian dichotomy makes zero sense whatsoever. They really ought to do Authoritarian vs. Libertarian instead, that is the correct dichotomy after all.

Does someone at Paradox really think a faction cannot be authoritarian and egalitarian at the same time? That they are somehow mutually exclusive? Nonsense.

I promise you in any PoliSci 101 course it is always Authoritarianism vs. Libertarianism every time.
bothaxes.gif
 
  • 12
  • 9
Reactions:
@BlackUmbrellas I appreciate you effort, but you don't seem to be quite sure about some of the stuff you mentioned. What are your sources? Do you even work at Paradox?
I could answer you more concretely if you'd specified what exactly you want sources on. The stuff I've been saying here is based out of a combination of A.) Playing the game, B.) Looking through the files while modding, C.) Having read previous Dev Diaries and remembering what was said in them.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
You know, I wonder if this may be the update where they finally let sectors funnel their excess/above cap minerals and energy to
us...
 
When this thing is released, then we here at Stellaris can finally say that we are getting closer to being a grand strategy game just like the others!
I just hope that there are ways for modders to stop faction creation (and ethics attraction except for government's attraction), so we can keep playing the Borg if we want to.

'Traditions and Unity'
This sounds exciting as well. Looking forward to it!
 
  • 2
Reactions:
I mentioned this before, but I feel like exotic government types that can't truly be compared to human counterparts needs some sort of specialized gameplay. Right now very collectivist empires don't really feel different anyway. Basically expansions or DLC which introduce different styles entirely:

- Make a Standard Empire (current normal Empire creation).
- Create a Hive Mind.

Later more unique stuff could be created like

- Create a Native Spaceborn species.

All of these can of course also be created by the AI, though they're somewhat rarer

You are right, but, nevertheless, in my opinion, this should be done on start:
"Featuring deep strategic gameplay, a rich and enormously diverse selection of alien races and emergent storytelling, Stellaris has engaging challenging gameplay that rewards interstellar exploration as you traverse, discover, interact and learn more about the multitude of species you will encounter during your travels."
Or should be:
There is "a rich and enormously diverse selection of alien races" portrait, and no real diversity "as you traverse, discover, interact and learn more about the" lack of diference "of species you will encounter during your travels".

I feel deceived.
 
  • 6
  • 4
Reactions:
You are right, but, nevertheless, in my opinion, this should be done on start:
"Featuring deep strategic gameplay, a rich and enormously diverse selection of alien races and emergent storytelling, Stellaris has engaging challenging gameplay that rewards interstellar exploration as you traverse, discover, interact and learn more about the multitude of species you will encounter during your travels."
Or should be:
There is "a rich and enormously diverse selection of alien races" portrait, and no real diversity "as you traverse, discover, interact and learn more about the" lack of diference "of species you will encounter during your travels".

I feel deceived.

Even if i agree with you, it was kind of clear that Paradox is unable\don't want to create "proper" aliens. Just humans. "You cannot teach an old dog new tricks." - it's all about humans for Paradox.
 
  • 3
  • 3
Reactions:
Even if i agree with you, it was kind of clear that Paradox is unable\don't want to create "proper" aliens. Just humans. "You cannot teach an old dog new tricks." - it's all about humans for Paradox.

I agree and I don't.

Any combination will always still remain somewhat humanoid, but I strongly suspect this is because of the inspiration for Stellaris has been material like Star Trek, Mass Effect and Babylon 5, which made use of mostly very human aliens, the first especially often to shed light on human dilemmas.

Each Empire will almost automatically be comparable to something in these mediums:

- Turians would be a militarist dictatorship or junta
- The Asari would be a pacifist direct democracy
- Klingons would be a militarist, spiritualist military junta
- Romulans would be individualistic, materialist, xenophobic military republic

And so on and so forth. You can set up almost any faction inspired by these standard empires from these mediums and this is what the ethics make possible. The point being that they never seem to have considered that maybe a player wants to play (or fight!) the "bugs" from Starship troopers - and I don't just mean in appearance. I think we need something on the scale of "The Sword of Islam" for Stellaris if we're going to get something akin to that.
 
  • 6
  • 1
Reactions:
I Agree with this factions system, its too inconsistent and boring deal with the single pops. I graphic in the faction page could be good. Its a very good mechanic because now I have to deal with politics of parties instead to force me to have interest in what think a single forgotten pop in a rock on the edge of a galactic domain.

About ethics, its a very complicated thing, for example the fact that people is living near free alien in my opinion don't make sure that they will be happy to have around xenos, it should depend also about the xenos you have around.
 
Last edited:
And so on and so forth. The point being that they never seem to have considered that maybe a player wants to play the "bugs" from Starship troopers - and I don't just mean in appearance.
Well, strictly speaking you can- you just need to exercise your imagination more strongly. It requires selectively ignoring some things while you write your own little story- just the same as playing a single-sex species does. Totally possible, you just need to mentally replace some stuff in the text.

An expansion allowing for a more mechanically-supported version would be welcome, but it isn't critical I don't think.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Well, strictly speaking you can- you just need to exercise your imagination more strongly. It requires selectively ignoring some things while you write your own little story- just the same as playing a single-sex species does. Totally possible, you just need to mentally replace some stuff in the text.

An expansion allowing for a more mechanically-supported version would be welcome, but it isn't critical I don't think.

I don't agree, fundamentally even the most collectivist empire is less the Bugs or Rachni or Borg than it is just being The Empire from Star wars or the like. Hell, collectivism even references humankind from W40k in some specific technology.

You can't truly play or oppose a proper Hive Mind, which I don't know if it's a time constraint and something that might be added eventually, or was never planned to begin with.

I don't want to play it, but I kind of want to live in a galaxy where there might be more fundamentally different factions to face.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
I don't agree, fundamentally even the most collectivist empire is less the Bugs or Rachni or Borg than it is just being The Empire from Star wars or the like. Hell, collectivism even references humankind from W40k in some specific technology.
I'm not sure it's really possible to meaningfully disagree with an argument that is basically "You can play whatever you want in this game if you're willing to pretend away some stuff".

I've played a monolithic hive-mind that is utterly incapable of conceiving of an "other" in any frame of reference other than revulsion and fear, leading them to lead a sterilizing campaign throughout the galaxy.

Was that reflected mechanically? Only insofar as I was playing a fanatical xenophobe collectivist empire that purged every planet they conquered. But that's still what my empire was- I exercised my imagination to selectively ignore the mechanics that disagreed with me.

Like I said, proper mechanical support would be nice, but its not critical, and if you're willing to use your imagination you can totally play the game as the Arachnids.
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
My feelings are a bit mixed. The faction system working more or less like that seems obvious when you have individual pops and stuff and I'd really like to have the gameplay depth it may bring. However it all seems so tricky I can't envision Paradox introducing such mechanic smoothly. There are going to be bugs, lots of bugs.
 
The Authoritarian vs. Egalitarian dichotomy makes zero sense whatsoever. They really ought to do Authoritarian vs. Libertarian instead, that is the correct dichotomy after all.

Does someone at Paradox really think a faction cannot be authoritarian and egalitarian at the same time? That they are somehow mutually exclusive? Nonsense.

I promise you in any PoliSci 101 course it is always Authoritarianism vs. Libertarianism every time.
bothaxes.gif

Agree that libertarian fit more, Egalitarism is too ambiguos in my opinion. We can have Authorian-Egalitarian countries (Soviet Union), and Egalitarian don't mean less state for sure. Be against authority can mean more freedom from the law but who knows if this mean also that people want a more fair play for all? (See America)
 
  • 7
  • 7
Reactions:
I'm not sure it's really possible to meaningfully disagree with an argument that is basically "You can play whatever you want in this game if you're willing to pretend away some stuff".

I mean... You can technically play anything your mind allows you to while standing in line at the local store.

I think the story-gameplay segregation isn't wide enough that I can do such a thing as you describe, when every species acts like we're basically Space Hitler if we do this, not the Borg Queen.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Agree that libertarian fit more, Egalitarism is too ambiguos in my opinion. We can have Authorian-Egalitarian countries (Soviet Union), and Egalitarian don't mean less state for sure. Be against authority can mean more freedom from the law but who knows if this mean also that people want a more fair play for all? (See America)

Exactly!
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Status
Not open for further replies.