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Stellaris Dev Diary #108 - 2.0 Post-Release Support (part 1)

Hello and welcome to another Stellaris dev diary. As we are still in full post-release support mode, until we are ready to get back to regular feature dev diaries, we're not going to have full-length dev diaries. Instead, we'll use the dev diaries to highlight certain fixes or tweaks that we feel need highlighting. Today, we're going to be covering some changes coming to the 2.0.2 beta in regards to War Exhaustion and forced Status Quo.

In 2.0, with the new war system, we added forced status quo peace as part of the new war exhaustion mechanics. We felt that this mechanic was necessary to ensure that limited wars could actually happen and so that the outmatched side in a war still had a reason to fight (pushing the enemy into 100% war exhaustion in order to force peace and reduce their territorial concessions). There were some problems with this mechanic, however, primarily that people felt surprised by a sudden peace in which they might lose systems the enemy has just occupied days ago, and also that certain wars (such as subjugation wars) were very difficult to fully win before being force-peaced out.

After receiving intial player feedback on these issues, we decided to try out a different model of war exhaustion in the 2.0.2 beta, replacing the forced status quo with a penalty at 100% war exhaustion. We have since been playing, testing, tweaking and collecting further feedback, and coming to the conclusion that our original design was correct - forced peace is necessary for the new war system to not simply become a series of single wars to the death, or powerful empires forcing a weaker empire into 100% war exhaustion and refusing to peace while their enemies were crippled by penalties.

For this reason, we will be reintroducing forced status quo peace, and this time it's here to stay. However, we are not simply going to roll back to exactly the way it is in 2.0, instead it will now work as follows:
- When a side in a war reaches 100% war exhaustion, they are now flagged as being at high war exhaustion, and get the alert as before
- Once at high war exhaustion, a 24 month timer will start to tick down for that side in the war. Once the timer is up, that war side can be forced into a status quo peace
- There will be no penalties for war exhaustion, but we will leave in the functionality for modders, as well as the ability to change the number of months before a forced peace is possible or disable forced peace altogether, so that those who truly hate to the idea of ever being forced to peace can at least change it through modding

These changes should mean that a status quo peace is something that doesn't come as a sudden surprise, and give the player time to start winding down their war and retake occupied systems when that war exhaustion counter ticks over into 100%.

We are also going to look into the possibility of changing Subjugation and Forced Ideology wars to either provide a clearer path to win such a war when the enemy has allies defending them, or by allowing Status Quo in such a war to achieve a 'limited victory' (liberating/subjugating part of the enemy empire instead of the whole).

These changes will not be in the very next version of 2.0.2 (as that is already being internally tested and will hopefully be with you before the end of the week), but we expect to roll them out sometime next week if all goes well.

That's all for today! See you next week for another 2.0 post-release dev diary.
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Fortune_Silver said:
I feel that this solution still has the issue of end-game wars mopping up weaker empires taking several long, drawn out wars to conquer completely, and having forced peaces at 2% off achieving wargoals, which always feels very unfair and arbitrary.

I would suggest instead that you keep the penalty system of the previous patch, but make the penalties MUCH harsher. Start with the existing penalties, but also add in that you cannot build new military ships or armies at 100% exhaustion, then add for example a yearly happiness decrease empire wide, as well as mineral/energy credit penalties that increase over time. Possibly also random events of ships and armies deserting that increase in frequency and severity as time drags on, representing deserting and maintenance being stretched thin maintaining the war effort.

Basically, make it so that your not FORCED to make peace per se, but if you try drag it out too long your empire will break from the strain of maintaining the war effort before the enemy does. Basically, make the forced peace a soft forced peace instead. Your not forced to, but it reaches a point where its the only viable option.

I think that this solution would also be great RP and general atmosphere wise, as it would make neck-and-neck wars feel like the epic desperate struggles where you are going all in to win as they were always meant to be, and allowing defending empires losing wars to mount the epic, tooth and nail, not-one-step-back struggles to defend their homelands.
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ok
lets make it crippling shall we
AND THEN WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO LOSING SIDE WHEN THEY WANT TO MAKE PEACE? I cannot make peace but war exhaustion simply crippling me because my ENEMY desire for war
Read what wiz wrote...
 
makaramus said:
ok
lets make it crippling shall we
AND THEN WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO LOSING SIDE WHEN THEY WANT TO MAKE PEACE? I cannot make peace but war exhaustion simply crippling me because my ENEMY desire for war
Read what wiz wrote...
Click to expand...
You could make war exhaustion seperate from "victory progress", and have the penalties apply equally to both sides so that long or short and especially bloody wars tire both sides equally quickly. War exhaustion becomes a war duration soft limiter, while victory progress acts like war exhaustion currently does.

No need to get snappy, im just throwing out ideas here.
 
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Fortune_Silver said:
You could make war exhaustion seperate from "victory progress", and have the penalties apply equally to both sides so that long or short and bloody wars tire both sides equally quickly. War exhaustion becomes a war duration soft limiter, while victory progress acts like war exhaustion currently does.

No need to get snappy, im just throwing out ideas here.
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what will happen when attacker want to peace out but defender say "do you know what... I refuse. Just to make you crippled and make others desire to war with you. I gonna pull you to hell with me! you gonna %100 occupy me or YOU will surrender to me :p"
ok lets keep this up :)
 
dollofdalborra said:
sorry grammar Nazi I didn't get the education you did and I don't think it would kill the game to leave it the way it was and only change it for those who got the new expansion then those that wanted something new can get it those of us who wanted it the way it was could of had that 2 telling me its simple to do is fine as I have said I'm no good with computers and every time I have tried to use a mod or a modded game there is issues with stability and sometimes even loosening saved game files as they become corrupted thanks for teasing my grammar much appreciated
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I learned English from TV and gaming, not from education. I'm not teasing your grammar, I'm saying you should learn to use punctuation or people wont take you as seriously. Try putting a dot (.) whenever you would normally pause or take a breath when you speak, that's a start.

The way paradox games work is that alot of the changes are in patches, and some are in the DLC. This is because paradox games have ALOT of DLCs and everyone might not own the same DLCs, yet they need to work together.

Mods on steam are easier to use and generally more stable than if you try to do it yourself. If you don't want to because it might be buggy I can understand that though.

Rerolling your version through the guide in the stickied post is super easy though and will take you 5 minute tops even if you are completely computer illiterate.
 
makaramus said:
what will happen when attacker want to peace out but defender say "do you know what... I refuse. Just to make you crippled and make others desire to war with you. I gonna pull you to hell with me! you gonna %100 occupy me or YOU will surrender to me :p"
ok lets keep this up :)
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My main problem in the game thus far has not been getting fucked over by AI decimating me in single wars, so much as it is that once you hit the post-crisis endgame conquering weaker yet large nations becomes a slow, tedius slog limited by arbitrary truce timers that dont even make sense sometimes (swarms, exterminators, purifiers etc)

Another option would be to make the penalties apply to the WINNING side, so that if you have the upper hand and the resources to spare you could push the offensive and eat the penalty, but if you push too hard the penalties open you up for a counter-offensive.
 
dollofdalborra said:
ive already told you issues with stability of the game corrupted files and continues crashes so don't and wont ever use mods again if you cant understand that just leave me alone as I'm really getting sick of saying the same thing over and over to you
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You basically had a few buses break down when you tried to ried to town in Uzbekistan and now you refuse to use public transport in Tokyo and complain that you gotta walk instead.

People propose you call a cab but you don't want to because you don't know how to make a phonecall.

We tell you there is a simple guide to calling the cab right next to you, but you refuse to and instead ask Japan to pay you back fpr the ticket and hotelroom, an hotelroom you already stayed in for 5 months.
 
Fortune_Silver said:
My main problem in the game thus far has not been getting fucked over by AI decimating me in single wars, so much as it is that once you hit the post-crisis endgame conquering weaker yet large nations becomes a slow, tedius slog limited by arbitrary truce timers that dont even make sense sometimes (swarms, exterminators, purifiers etc)

Another option would be to make the penalties apply to the WINNING side, so that if you have the upper hand and the resources to spare you could push the offensive and eat the penalty, but if you push too hard the penalties open you up for a counter-offensive.
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what? what do you mean by getting fucked over by AI?
 
makaramus said:
what? what do you mean by getting fucked over by AI?
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Disclaimer here, I play singleplayer only, no multiplayer thus far. What I mean is that i have never had an issue during the last beta with AI empires keeping me in perpetual 100% exhaustion, they usually accept surrender. I understand that human players could be dicks in multiplayer, but the last idea about shifting penalties to the winning side would help balance that, no point pushing a war for minor gains if its going to gut your economy for potentially decades.
 
bodhi said:
Have no idea if you've been playing Beta, but the bugs it has in the release version have been fixed. It's beautiful now. You'll love it and if you still don't then you just need to learn how to use it properly.
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I'm currently facing(latest beta) the same issues I've had before, for example I've got 4/5 Battleships in template and 20k minterals, can't reinforce(naval capacity is available)
Fleets have to be upgraded before reinforcing(nonsense IMO) otherwise it'd lead to bugs(I've got incorrect amount of ships if I reinforce before upgrade, in particular when there are corvettes like 20/0 in the fleet, in result I can get 40/20 corvettes.)
Still can't add titan that is already part of the fleet to the template
Total naval capacity is incremented in 1 instead +2 for each destroyer, +4 for each cruiser, +8 for each battleship, and +16 for titan, giving incorrect estimate of used naval capacity
Mineral count for reinforcement of all fleets still shows nonsense, like 13 ships have to be reinforced for [cost of 1 battleship] and then reinforced for completely different value of minerals.
 
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dollofdalborra said:
ive already told you issues with stability of the game corrupted files and continues crashes so don't and wont ever use mods again if you cant understand that just leave me alone as I'm really getting sick of saying the same thing over and over to you
Click to expand...

Have you tried any Stellaris mods?
 
Honestly, this is getting a bit ri
makaramus said:
ok
lets make it crippling shall we
AND THEN WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO LOSING SIDE WHEN THEY WANT TO MAKE PEACE? I cannot make peace but war exhaustion simply crippling me because my ENEMY desire for war
Read what wiz wrote...
Click to expand...


Well, in a non-Total War you could just surrender, right?
 
AlanC9 said:
Honestly, this is getting a bit ri



Well, in a non-Total War you could just surrender, right?
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And then you lose half your empire and can't come back from it because you keep getting beat on.
 
baldrs said:
Fleets have to be upgraded before reinforcing(nonsense IMO) otherwise it'd lead to bugs
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Huh? I can do this just fine. I've got both old and new corvette designs in my fleet right now.
 
AlanC9 said:
Huh? I can do this just fine. I've got both old and new corvette designs in my fleet right now.
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There's some indication that having the designs auto-upgrade during a reinforcement is the cause of the "un-removable ghost ships in the fleet manager build queue" bug (that crashes to desktop when you try to delete the fleet from the manager).

Hopefully this is the last build we have to deal with that in.

Example bug thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...nforcements-block-getting-full-fleet.1080520/
 
James Fire said:
And then you lose half your empire and can't come back from it because you keep getting beat on.
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Sure, but losing a war should suck.

More seriously, I take it that you're looking for a WE penalty which would cripple a clearly victorious enemy enough to stop them from occupying all the stuff they could otherwise occupy. We're talking about a case where victory is already impossible for the losing side, right? The question is just how bad the cost is going to be.
 
Defiler99 said:
There's some indication that having the designs auto-upgrade during a reinforcement is the cause of the "un-removable ghost ships in the fleet manager build queue" bug (that crashes to desktop when you try to delete the fleet from the manager).

Hopefully this is the last build we have to deal with that in.

Example bug thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...nforcements-block-getting-full-fleet.1080520/
Click to expand...

Ah, that makes sense. I never use auto-designs, so I'd never see it.
 
AlanC9 said:
Sure, but losing a war should suck.

More seriously, I take it that you're looking for a WE penalty which would cripple a clearly victorious enemy enough to stop them from occupying all the stuff they could otherwise occupy. We're talking about a case where victory is already impossible for the losing side, right? The question is just how bad the cost is going to be.
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But it's not fun. And besides, it could then be cheesed by a good enough player.
 
Wait... losing is supposed to be fun?

I'm not sure what you want here.
 
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