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CK2 Dev Diary #84 - Renovating Russia

Greetings!

Today we’re going back into the cartographer’s office to view the latest maps of the vast lands that lie just before the eternal steppes, where the Volga flows - the land of the proud Rus’. The Russian lands have always felt rather underdeveloped in CK2 compared to their size, even very important sites such as Kiev or Novgorod have been occupied by massive Counties that hardly give the area justice. As the area is one which lies in between the lords of feudal western europe, the Roman remnants in Byzantium and the relentless nomads of the steppes we thought it much too interesting to not develop further.

As Russia is quite big, we’ve broken the images up into three parts. These pictures are all from the year 769, so if something isn’t named as you expect it to be (i.e. Novgorod being named Ilmen) that’s the reason why.

Starting off with the north:
RussiaDD_North.png

As you can see, the definition has increased rather significantly. Historicity has also been improved, as the new borders are all based on sources from between the years ~600 to ~1300 (From proto-slavic tribes migrating in the area to the dissolution of the Kievan Rus' by internal strife and the Mongol hordes) with a focus on the 700-1100 timespan.

Now the south:
RussiaDD_South.png

Of primary note is that Kiev is now split up, and no longer one single humongous County. Those of you with sharp eyes might also notice that there is a new nomadic nation up by Radimichia and Severia - the Burtas clan, which is Turkic.

And as a bonus, Wallachia:
RussiaDD_Wallachia.png

As Bessarabia was so interconnected with the Kievan and Crimean lands, it felt right to also give the kingdom of Wallachia a facelift.

And now for the De Jure maps, as they have been requested in every previous map Dev Diary so far!

Duchies:
RussiaDD_769DeJureDuchies.png


Kingdoms:
RussiaDD_769DeJureKingdoms.png


You may notice that the old Rus’ kingdom is gone, replaced with the much more historical kingdoms of Novgorod and Vladimir. There are also several new smaller kingdoms, such as Galicia-Volhynia and Chernigov which both provide new opportunities and new risks, depending on if you’re playing in the Tribal era or Feudal era.

Empires:
RussiaDD_769DeJureEmpires.png

There was no doubt that the Tartarian empire was too big, that’s why when we had to add to it (the Kingdom of Perm is now part of it instead of Russia) we felt the need to break it up. In the south you can now see an empire of the Pontic Steppe - closely representing the Khazarian sphere of influence at its height.

Here’s a screenshot of how the 867 setup will look:
RussiaDD_867.png

And here’s 1066:
RussiaDD_1066.png

The major thing in this date is that after Yaroslav the Wise's death in 1054, his land in the Kievan Rus was divided between his 5 sons. Internal strife erupted quickly after between the sons and other relatives (like the prince of Polotsk), hurting the stability of the state.

That's why although the Kievan Rus' still existed as somewhat centralized around the Grand Prince of Kiev, at least for a while, unity wasn't the key word to describe the state. We've reflected that by keeping the different duchies independent but still tributaries to Kiev - until civil war starts again when brothers, sons, and cousins start pushing for their claims...

Changelog:
Code:
- Map Update to Russia
   - Major overhaul of the whole russian sphere
    - All major & minor rivers reshaped
    - e_russia is now created through 5 kingdoms (Ruthenia, Novgorod, Vladimir, Chernigov & Galicia-Volhynia)
    - 3 new kingdoms : Vladimir, Chernigov, Galicia-Volhynia
    - k_rus renamed from "Rus" to "Novgorod"
    - 4 new duchies (Cherven Cities, Karachev, Novosil, Murom)
    - 37 new provinces added to the general area
    - A few titular russian-tribes-themed duchies added for earlier startdates

Note that from now on, CK2 Dev Diaries will take place on Fridays rather than Mondays!
 
The system of tributaries could also be used in Poland during the fragmentation of the realm (1138 – 1295). There was no king of Poland at the time. Seniority succession should also be apply in all polish duchies of this period.
 
Good to see you've redrawn Moldavia in particular. It was always a big turn-off from using the vanilla map. I'd maybe rename the empire of the Pontic Steppe to something less clunky, even if it's just Khazaria.
How about adding Georgia Armenia and that last Caucasian kingdom to it and calling it Caucasia? I know there's a map mod which did that. It is a decent exonym, as for the locals it should simply take it's name depending on who holds it.
It would also come with the advantage or reducing Byszantium's dejure which I don't think is a bad idea.

Why not name the "Pontic Steppe" "Scythia"?
Because Scythia has been gone for a thousand years. And was a rump state long before that. The great scytian empire was contemperory with the rise of Achamenid persia if I recall correctly and that lace them in the 6th century BC. More than 1300 years before the start of Ck2.

Pontic Stepp, am okey with this, but, that will be super, if in the case of Alanian rule over this territory, this name should change to Scythia.
Why? Might as well call it Sarmatia then, the Alans are alans not Scythians not sarmatians, just have it be called Alania in the hands of Alans.

Anyway, what are the odds we coukd get a Novgorod Merchant Republic now?
I would love to see river and lake side MRs.

Burtas look different at the first screenshots. Oghuz?

The borders of kingdoms are ugly twisted :(
Mostly just Ruthenia and if you look closely you will notice it follows the river Dniepr. Which made a lot of sense in reality and none in the game seeing as rivers only hinder movement in ck2. Unless you are a viking and even then you can only rise fleets in real harbours and then bring them into a river system.
One day I hope they'll do justice to the rivers of Europe.

These "tails", which now have de jure borders, irritate me immeasurably.
Again because they follow rivers rather than geographical prooximity medieval times did not have air traffic the shortest distance between two places was not always as a bird flies.
Taurica for k_crimea, is just as bad as Russia for e_russia. Should be Rus and Crimea
Why? Crimea doesn't exist until after the last start date. And it''s also a khanate thus a horde so it doesn't use regular titles.
Pskov now have access to the sea. This changes everything. Also, no need to push to Perm to get Empire. Gameplay will change drasticly, as no need to some insane landgrabs in a middle of nowhere to be able to form an Empire
Except it's wrong Ingria is fennougric not Russian.
 
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Overall, extremely happy with this change, as this part of the world is one I always mess around with, de-jure-wise, before I start a new game.

Couple small suggestions:
- Duchy of Sarkel still looks kind of big. Any historic basis for breaking it into two east/west chunks? The west chunk, which I tend to call Sharukan in my games (but I just picked a random county in its area), seems like it would fit better into the new kingdom of Chernigov, than into Khazaria, which still looks a little stretched out the way Tartaria-related stuff always has been.
- Not a big fan of the border between Ruthenia and Chernigov aesthetically, but if it's historic, it's historic. The above point does help to address that in my opinion.
- Volga Bulgaria is in an even stranger position now that it's in the middle of three empires than it was when it was in the middle of two. No matter who you assign it to, you've got either a weird dangling Perm or a weird dangling chunk between Russia and the new Pontic Steppe. Any chance of reworking this kingdom? Again, I'm not sure what's historic in this region, but if you could give some of its northeastern extent to Perm, the southwestern bits would look a lot more natural in the Pontic Steppe than in Tartaria.
- Lastly, I like the idea of naming the Pontic Steppe as "Scythia". I would also suggest that Galicia-Volhynia be shortened to just Volhynia, it's really crammed in there. And, if any work is done on Volga Bulgaria, I've always favored the name Bolgharia for that region myself; Volga Bulgaria is awkward and retronymic. We call White Croatia "Chrobatia", so why not call Volga Bulgaria "Bolgharia"?

Again, great work overall, really happy to see these changes in such a neglected region.
 
Looks like I'm a bit late to the party, but will we see any new cultures to accompany these map changes?

According to Wikipedia, the real-life Burtas people were of "uncertain ethnic origins." It might be neat to give them their own culture as opposed to the heinous "Turkish."
 
Not a big fan of the border between Ruthenia and Chernigov aesthetically, but if it's historic, it's historic. The above point does help to address that in my opinion.
It follows the dniepr river system. Rivers tied people together in this era. And even much later notice how Germany is along the Rhien and Elbe rivers awhile Austria hungary who didn't join are in the Danube one. That's not mere coincidence. Rivers means trade which means cultural exchange.

Volga Bulgaria is in an even stranger position now that it's in the middle of three empires than it was when it was in the middle of two. No matter who you assign it to, you've got either a weird dangling Perm or a weird dangling chunk between Russia and the new Pontic Steppe. Any chance of reworking this kingdom? Again, I'm not sure what's historic in this region, but if you could give some of its northeastern extent to Perm, the southwestern bits would look a lot more natural in the Pontic Steppe than in Tartaria.
I would take Volga Bulgaria and Perm and make them an empire of their own. Tartaria is pretty pointless anyway seeing as all the hordes have their own custom empire titles.

Lastly, I like the idea of naming the Pontic Steppe as "Scythia"
Opposed, the scythians died out almost thousand years earlier in this period I doubt anyone even remembered the name Scythia.
 
Because Scythia has been gone for a thousand years. And was a rump state long before that. The great scytian empire was contemperory with the rise of Achamenid persia if I recall correctly and that lace them in the 6th century BC. More than 1300 years before the start of Ck2.


Why? Might as well call it Sarmatia then, the Alans are alans not Scythians not sarmatians, just have it be called Alania in the hands of Alans..

Well I believe, and I could be misstaken, that Scythia was the name of the region in antiquity, saying Scythia was inhabited by Scythian is like sayig Europe is inhabited by Europeans, unlike Sarmatians which were a specific culture much like Mongolians or French. And while I think that there should be many cultural names for the region, like say Khazaria if held by Khazars, Alania if held by Alans etc. I don't think it's that far off to guess that if some european had established an empire in the region they might've lookd to antiquity for naming their realm.
 
Well I believe, and I could be misstaken, that Scythia was the name of the region in antiquity, saying Scythia was inhabited by Scythian is like sayig Europe is inhabited by Europeans, unlike Sarmatians which were a specific culture much like Mongolians or French. And while I think that there should be many cultural names for the region, like say Khazaria if held by Khazars, Alania if held by Alans etc. I don't think it's that far off to guess that if some european had established an empire in the region they might've lookd to antiquity for naming their realm.

But nine times out of ten, the Empire title won't be formed by a European. So why even use that as an argument for anything? Scythia is just as bad as Sarmatia
 
Well I believe, and I could be misstaken, that Scythia was the name of the region in antiquity, saying Scythia was inhabited by Scythian is like sayig Europe is inhabited by Europeans, unlike Sarmatians which were a specific culture much like Mongolians or French. And while I think that there should be many cultural names for the region, like say Khazaria if held by Khazars, Alania if held by Alans etc. I don't think it's that far off to guess that if some european had established an empire in the region they might've lookd to antiquity for naming their realm.
The scythians were a people, one of the iranian tribes, the region was named after them. And they were really past their glory in the antiquity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians
 
Opposed, the scythians died out almost thousand years earlier in this period I doubt anyone even remembered the name Scythia
well Alans are direct descedants of Scythians, more precisely Sarmatiqns, you could technically call the modern Ossetians Scythians. But I get your point, maybe something like Sarmatia (which is around that area) or Pontica.
 
I'm happy to see Tartaria broken up a bit. It was just a massive empire that could use some polishing.

As for the Pontic Steppe Empire, I'm sure it will have different names under different cultures. Like Alania for Alans, Khazaria for Khazars, and so on.

Although I wonder what it would be called for a Greek led Pontic Steppe, since Cherson is a Greek duchy in the early starts.
 
well Alans are direct descedants of Scythians, more precisely Sarmatiqns, you could technically call the modern Ossetians Scythians. But I get your point, maybe something like Sarmatia (which is around that area) or Pontica.
No the Scythian Saramatians and Alans are all related but different people's yes the Sarmatians and Alans were part of the Scythian horse/empire but they were a people in their own right. What remained of the Scythians and sarmatians got more or less wiped out by the hunnic wars, the alans survived by staying out of it.
 
Greetings!

Today we’re going back into the cartographer’s office to view the latest maps of the vast lands that lie just before the eternal steppes, where the Volga flows - the land of the proud Rus’. The Russian lands have always felt rather underdeveloped in CK2 compared to their size, even very important sites such as Kiev or Novgorod have been occupied by massive Counties that hardly give the area justice. As the area is one which lies in between the lords of feudal western europe, the Roman remnants in Byzantium and the relentless nomads of the steppes we thought it much too interesting to not develop further.

As Russia is quite big, we’ve broken the images up into three parts. These pictures are all from the year 769, so if something isn’t named as you expect it to be (i.e. Novgorod being named Ilmen) that’s the reason why.

Starting off with the north:
View attachment 371053
As you can see, the definition has increased rather significantly. Historicity has also been improved, as the new borders are all based on sources from between the years ~600 to ~1300 (From proto-slavic tribes migrating in the area to the dissolution of the Kievan Rus' by internal strife and the Mongol hordes) with a focus on the 700-1100 timespan.

Now the south:
View attachment 371059
Of primary note is that Kiev is now split up, and no longer one single humongous County. Those of you with sharp eyes might also notice that there is a new nomadic nation up by Radimichia and Severia - the Burtas clan, which is Turkic.

And as a bonus, Wallachia:
View attachment 371057
As Bessarabia was so interconnected with the Kievan and Crimean lands, it felt right to also give the kingdom of Wallachia a facelift.

And now for the De Jure maps, as they have been requested in every previous map Dev Diary so far!

Duchies:
View attachment 371058

Kingdoms:
View attachment 371056

You may notice that the old Rus’ kingdom is gone, replaced with the much more historical kingdoms of Novgorod and Vladimir. There are also several new smaller kingdoms, such as Galicia-Volhynia and Chernigov which both provide new opportunities and new risks, depending on if you’re playing in the Tribal era or Feudal era.

Empires:
View attachment 371054
There was no doubt that the Tartarian empire was too big, that’s why when we had to add to it (the Kingdom of Perm is now part of it instead of Russia) we felt the need to break it up. In the south you can now see an empire of the Pontic Steppe - closely representing the Khazarian sphere of influence at its height.

Here’s a screenshot of how the 867 setup will look:
View attachment 371055
And here’s 1066:
View attachment 371060
The major thing in this date is that after Yaroslav the Wise's death in 1054, his land in the Kievan Rus was divided between his 5 sons. Internal strife erupted quickly after between the sons and other relatives (like the prince of Polotsk), hurting the stability of the state.

That's why although the Kievan Rus' still existed as somewhat centralized around the Grand Prince of Kiev, at least for a while, unity wasn't the key word to describe the state. We've reflected that by keeping the different duchies independent but still tributaries to Kiev - until civil war starts again when brothers, sons, and cousins start pushing for their claims...

Changelog:
Code:
- Map Update to Russia
   - Major overhaul of the whole russian sphere
    - All major & minor rivers reshaped
    - e_russia is now created through 5 kingdoms (Ruthenia, Novgorod, Vladimir, Chernigov & Galicia-Volhynia)
    - 3 new kingdoms : Vladimir, Chernigov, Galicia-Volhynia
    - k_rus renamed from "Rus" to "Novgorod"
    - 4 new duchies (Cherven Cities, Karachev, Novosil, Murom)
    - 37 new provinces added to the general area
    - A few titular russian-tribes-themed duchies added for earlier startdates

Note that from now on, CK2 Dev Diaries will take place on Fridays rather than Mondays!
Will those changes arrive with the new expansion?
 
But nine times out of ten, the Empire title won't be formed by a European. So why even use that as an argument for anything? Scythia is just as bad as Sarmatia
Let's be honest though, Pontic Steppe is even worse. Not that it matters much since you can just name your empire whatever you like, but eh.

The scythians were a people, one of the iranian tribes, the region was named after them. And they were really past their glory in the antiquity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians
I stand partly corrected, but it was also the name of the general region (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia). The name "Pontic Steppe" just hurts my eyes, I'd rather call it Pontia but Scythia atleast has some historical context.
Either way, no biggie.
 
still, the arms adjusted, would have been cool... and that at some two identical coats of arms, the coat of arms of Vladimir is established at Vladimir Volynsky... and so on
 
Because Scythia has been gone for a thousand years. And was a rump state long before that. The great scytian empire was contemperory with the rise of Achamenid persia if I recall correctly and that lace them in the 6th century BC. More than 1300 years before the start of Ck2.
Yes, real scythians were dead for centuries. But this name was still used to describe tribes living to the north of the Black Sea. For example, Anna Komnene in The Alexiad calls pechenegs scythians.
 
Let's be honest though, Pontic Steppe is even worse. Not that it matters much since you can just name your empire whatever you like, but eh.


I stand partly corrected, but it was also the name of the general region (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia). The name "Pontic Steppe" just hurts my eyes, I'd rather call it Pontia but Scythia atleast has some historical context.
Either way, no biggie.
It'd be Pontos then not Pontia. And Scythia on that map is a lot further east, centered north of the Caspian sea not north of the black sea.

Yes, real scythians were dead for centuries. But this name was still used to describe tribes living to the north of the Black Sea. For example, Anna Komnene in The Alexiad calls pechenegs scythians.
Really? Well I stand corrected then. Still an odd choice of a name for the region.
 
Most toponyms are quite historically accurate but few need some work. The most obvious examples are Dregovichia and Radimichia which break language rules: suffixes -ich and -ia are mutually exclusive in Slavic languages, a word can have either one or another but not both.
A proper toponym for the Dregoviches tribe could be Dregva (from Proto-Slavic *dreg(ъ)va, literally meaning 'bog') and for Radimiches I propose Posozhye (meaning 'land by the river Sozh', the name of the river being recorded as Old East Slavic "Съжь" in the Laurentian Codex).
As an alternative, you may just use name of the tribes without any improvisation, but please don't put them in singular like "Vyatich" (rather "Vyatichi").
By the way, the very same Vyatichi unlike other tribes seem to have been either semi-independent or autonomous from Chernigov and Kiev well into the 11th century (Vladimir Monomakh led two military expeditions on consequential winters somewhere between late 1070s and early 1090s) so at the 1066 start several provinces of the Chernigov Kingdom (near the Don head and by Oka) might be some kind of tributaries.
I may provide sources if it's OK that they are in Russian.