Dev Diary #93 - Venetian Guile

[XYN]

Ws already asked ? Then Why is still called Byzantine empire ?

It is commonly known today as "Byzantine Empire". I don't see any problems.

Doesn't really matter how did they call themselves. They don't play this game.

 

[Andrelvis]

Latin, Nicaea, Holy Roman, Rum, Trebizond, and Epirus?

Just curious if those are the 6 you mean.

Yup! You got it exactly.

 

[sreckom92]

What is a legal name for a country?
Probably the one used by people who live in that country, right?

Well, most of the country names in CK2 would be wrong.

But, what are country names in general?
They are something by which countries are referred to. And the right of naming someone like this falls on...pretty much everyone. I didn't choose my name, nor my nickname. Someone else did it for me.
So, a historian or geographer can name a country by whichever way he wants, as long as it is sensible somewhat.
Byzantine Empire refers to the remnant of the Roman Empire.

The historians who coined the term wanted to differentiate between a decaying realm which mostly existed around the old Byzantium during High Middle Ages, and an ancient superpower.
Just a way for an easier classification.
Is it legal?
Not really.
Neither are most of other country names.
Is it a good pointer? Do you know what is that realm, and when did it exist? Yes, pretty much.

I believe names are what represent a country. If it's a legal name, it's more realistic.
If it's a good pointer, which is also generally accepted to refer towards that country...then it's also good.
In the end, the right of naming falls on the name giver. Which in this case is CK2 dev team.

There is a suggestion thread, and all we can do is to make a polite request.
But there are people here who would consider the name "byzantine empire" a capital offense.
Stop it.
CK2 is not an "official" history simulator, which if not "legal", consistutes a grave crime. This is something that would bother totalitarian regimes like Saudi Arabia or China...

 

[Lightfollower]

Do we really need two Roman Empires on the map?

Yes.

 

[Thure]

Yes.

I mean two empires both called 'Roman Empire' on the map. Which would totally confuse people.

 

[xXConquerorXx]

I mean two empires both called 'Roman Empire' on the map. Which would totally confuse people.

Then both should just duke it out to see who's the REAL Roman Empire!

 

[ernst_earnest]

I mean two empires both called 'Roman Empire' on the map. Which would totally confuse people.

That it would confuse people is really a point FOR it rather than AGAINST it

 

[thevmag]

It is entirely tied to SoA, you don't need Holy Fury for it. As it was something we originally sold with SoA, it would be unfair to resell it to people.

Wait wait wait... Sons of Abraham has a Shepards Crusade?

 

[Urzhail64]

Strictly tongue in cheek, but will there be an option for non Christian lords to *enslave* all those peasants and children enroute on their Crusade? It does sound like a moving slave market waiting to happen....

 

[ernst_earnest]

Strictly tongue in cheek, but will there be an option for non Christian lords to *enslave* all those peasants and children enroute on their Crusade? It does sound like a moving slave market waiting to happen....

I think that will be one of the first things modders will implement

 

[TheDungen]

And the Byzantine Empire didn’t call themselves the Byzantines. They called themselves the Romans.

It’s already been stated by the dev team that they generally use English historiography when naming states. Not what the states actually called themselves.

But the Byzantine empire can force others to recognize them as the Roman empire and that's what I am asking for for the Latin empire that it can force the Greeks to recognize it as the real Byzantine empire (or empire of the Greeks really).

 

[TheDungen]

The Byzantine empire was never called as such in middle ages , especially by its citizens.
they called themselves Romans and they called their empire Roman Empire, so can that proper title be used in stead of the wrong Byzantine one that is only a later western nomenclature used by some historians to claim a difference between the Old Roman empire and the eastern part?

Becaus with was different in many ways also non Greeks referred to it as the empire of the Greeks.

I agree Venice should be dejure byzantine, they were officially part of the empire till 1082. Then they were allies till manuel. Venice getting eaten can easily be solved by making Venice a tributary state of Byzantium in 769.867,1066 and then in 1081 once Byzantium is weak break it simulating the treaty of 1082.

Or just limit the use of the desire claim cb towards much lower tiers.

And for who doesn't know and disagreed...

Throughout their history, the Byzantines self-identified as Romans Ῥωμαῖοι, Rhōmaîoi.
Their empire was called Βασιλεία Ῥωμαίων
Basileía Rhōmaíōna and Imperium Romanum!

Every other nation referred to them as Romans apart western latin church people who tried to steal the true Roman heritage by the eastern empire heirs. So a naming based on Byzantine is a medieval western biased naming that I think should be fixed.

Even the Arabs, continued to refer to the Byzantines as "Romans".

No most others referred to them as the empire of the Greeks.

Nobody called themselves "Byzantines."

No plenty of people called themselves the Roman empire. And Byzantine empire sounds better than enpire of the Greeks.

"Byzantine Empire" is not a historically accurate term either. They just called themselves "Rome."

Also, the Latins called themselves "Romania" historically. I prefer just calling them the Latin Empire.

Actually tje latin empire called themselves the Roman empire of Greeks and Latins. Bit there should be a way for the Latin empire to usurp the Byzantine empire and it's demure properly.

I don't see why people are disagreeing with you. This is a historical fact. Honestly, I'm kind of hoping that in CKIII, they just call them the Roman Empire from the start, instead of having to do a "reforming."

The "Everyone else called them romans" is just plain wrong post Charlemagne the Byzantine were called empire of the Greeks by others.

I always kind of assumed that the decision was more about outsider recognition. Westerners can call the Byzzies the Empire of the Greeks and proclaim the HRE the true successor to old Rome, but once said Greeks have taken back a lot of the old Roman lands, including Rome and Jerusalem, then they force the rest of Europe to acknowledge them as Romans.

And in the same way the Latin empire should be able to get itself recognized as the true Byzantine empire or Roman empire of the Greeks if you prefer it.

Maybe rename the Byzantines to the Greco-Roman Empire?

It's called the Byzantine empire today and also it fits better in the mouth.

PARTLY true. They didn't used it in this form but they referenced to themself often as Eastern part of the Roman Empire.

And if you use THAT argument... the Holy Roman Empire wasn't called this until the 13th century. From Charlemagne to the 13th century the Holy Roman Empire was just called 'Roman Empire'. Do we really need two Roman Empires on the map?

That said the Roman empire of Charlemagne called itself the Roman empire bit was called the empire of the Frank's by everyone else. The empire that would become the holy Roman empire was called the empire of the Germans. And the Byzantine empire as called empire for the Greeks.

Then both should just duke it out to see who's the REAL Roman Empire!

That's essentially what the decision to form the Roman empire is. And that's what i want for the Latin empire. The ability for it and the Greek successor states to duke it out over who is the legitimate "Byzantine empire".

 

[Snow Crystal]

Let us bring back the discussion to the topic at hand. I know a lot of you feel strongly about the Roman Empire, but the name isn't really what the DD is about, so if people want to continue the discussion, I suggest opening another topic for it.

 

[TheDungen]

Let us bring back the discussion to the topic at hand. I know a lot of you feel strongly about the Roman Empire, but the name isn't really what the DD is about, so if people want to continue the discussion, I suggest opening another topic for it.

Well it started out as a discussion regarding the Latin empire forming the Byzantine one. So how about it? If the other successor states can restore it why cannot the Latin empire enforce their claim?

 

[Snow Crystal]

Well it started out as a discussion regarding the Latin empire forming the Byzantine one. So how about it?

Sounds fair to me. I'll see if I have time to add a decision for it.

 

[Blackhammer99]

Hmm, the last image of rules shows "Dynamic Crusader States."
Is that something that has been talked about before?
It doesn't sound familiar, but I haven't been able to follow all the news every week so I assume I've just missed something?

Where can I learn more about what a "dynamic crusader state" is?

 

[Snow Crystal]

It isn't something we have talked about properly in a Dev Diary, but I mention it in some posts throughout this thread - https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-diary-83-god-wills-it.1097740/&sdpDevPosts=1

 

[Rakdar]

Nice. I hope you rework Legacy of Rome in the future. I’d love some specific features and mechanics for the Byzantine Empire.

 

[Almirante]

Great diary as usual.
Though, did somebody say...
RECONQUISTA?!
SANTIAGOOOO!

 

[Lord Hoosier]

Down with the False Romans! DEUS VULT!