Stellaris Dev Diary #218 - Plantoids Gameplay

[Less2]

For a time, that's true, but it doesn't take too long to build up pops to 15+. Fast Breeders probably has an advantage over Budding during part of the early game, but it'll go away by the mid-game, since Budding is equal to Fast Breeders on any planet with 15 pops.

You're ignoring that fast breeders costs only 2 points and that it is affected by the planet capacity growth bonus. You need to reach ~33 pops with budding to be equal once you include both of these points.

 

[Objulen]

You're ignoring that fast breeders costs only 2 points and that it is affected by the planet capacity growth bonus. You need to reach ~33 pops with budding to be equal once you include both of these points.

Not at all.

It does cost an extra point, true. But trait points don't translate the way you are applying them, because you're taking negatives to get the extra points. Are you paying 10% extra CG per pop, for example? Depending on your economy, that's a small price for the extra pop growth, or it may become more significant. The extra trait is absolutely a cost, but how you pay that cost has vary so much that it's hard to calculate well. It certainly doesn't translate well into pop growth, but for the sake of argument you could get Nomadic, though good luck nailing down an average bonus for that trait.

Nor am I ignoring planetary capacity. It's also a factor. When your planetary capacity is 4.5, then you're getting .9 extra growth from Rapid Breeders, which is the same as 45 pops with Budding. But planetary capacity has ramp up and ramp downs - you aren't meant to have a 4.5 bonus for an extended period of time, while Budding grows and grows and grows. I'm not including the block-job exploit, if it hasn't been fixed. If we include it, then ramping up to a .9 growth bonus is the same as Budding with a 45 pop planet. The question there is how many pops does it take to get that bonus, compared to budding, over time.

EDIT: Also, you get continued budding growth from your core worlds, but not from standard growth. So that complicates things as well.

 

[PlasticFacecrops]

With the ability to turn food into alloys, Hiveminds can finally snowball after conquest instead of having to wait until completing Biological Ascension.

Also your comment made me realize again just how terrible most of the Hivemind civics are. Even Machine empires get a civic for +1 Mineral output. This is a top tier civic but why is this not a thing for Hiveminds? Its nice that finally Hiveminds are getting some help.

Buy DLC X to make the content added by DLC Y more viable?

I wonder how the devs approach game balance with regard to DLC access. Do they assume that everyone has bought all of them? Do they run the numbers once with no DLC and once with all of them?

 

[Tech Noir Synth]

I wonder how the devs approach game balance with regard to DLC access. Do they assume that everyone has bought all of them? Do they run the numbers once with no DLC and once with all of them?

That question is easy to answer. Look at Megacorp. They did the whole 2.0 pop rework. They nerfed all Megastructures to garbage tier. Remember Ring worlds with 50 districts? Then they added Ecumenopolis, which blew everything out of the water and gets unlocked earlier than Megastructures. Remember when everyone was rushing Fen Habbanis since that precursor was a free Ecu? Whenever they add something its overpowered.

Also same with the Artifact DLC and Cybrex Warforge. That thing completely broke the game on Machine Empires or Empires going for Synth Ascension. Same thing as in Megacorp.

Also later on they buffed Megastructures again once people started complaining. But that was a long after the release of Megacorp dlc.

 

[Primarch Victus]

Hello, as a biologist I would like to point out that:

1- Fungi aren't phototrophs. Moreover, they aren't even closely related to plants while actually they are to animals (phylogenesis, biochemistry and genetics). It is inaccurate to treat fungoids and plantoids as similar in their possible capabilities, if they are based on fungi and plants. I'd rather give further characterization to fungoids with traits that could be used to customize them as symbiotic lifeforms, particularly with some parasitic or parasitoid traits (e.g. Cordyceps, which inspired The Last of Us), or mutualistic traits (e.g. mycorrhizae), or even both;

2- Phototrophic organisms convert light into metabolic energy (e.g. to produce carbohydrates through photosynthesis). That means that they need to be exposed to sunlight, not that they need to be connected to an energy grid with power plants that are required for their upkeep just like pops eat food. I would change to a simple reduction in food upkeep, or replace it with something else;

3- Maybe we can allow the phototrophic trait for fungoids because we consider them in a symbiotic relationship with a photosynthetic organism (e.g. lichens), and make a bit of abstraction about their sustenance. But then there are some cases of symbiotic association between animals and photosynthetic dinoflagellates (e.g. zooxanthellae within corals or sponges), animals that acquire chloroplasts from the algae they eat (e.g. Elysa chlorotica), and animals that possess pigments that are suggested to be capable of accumulating small quantities of energy from exposition to light (i.e. Vespa orientalis, although it's still debated, but nothing prevents this to inspire a videogame). So I wouldn't force a very abstract "phototrophic" trait to be restricted to plants. What if I want to play a molluscoid species that lives in symbiosis with photosynthetic algae, reducing their need for food?

§

I am oversimplifying, and I didn't read the whole topic to check if someone already said something similar, but I hope that this might give ideas either to developers or modders.

Those are good suggestions, my friend! I intend to make all my fungoid empires to be radiotrophs and live in worlds with a high level of radiation -- like the ones in the mod Planetary Diversity - Exotic Worlds: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1732437279

 

[Kaoru Sen'nin]

I would like to know why people keep downvoting anyone pointing out that Phototropic is a trait that makes your species weaker.

Pretty sure it's people that like the flavor of the trait and don't do the distinction between that and the pure game design.

If I am wrong I would like some actual argument.

 

[majikero]

I would like to know why people keep downvoting anyone pointing out that Phototropic is a trait that makes your species weaker.

Pretty sure it's people that like the flavor of the trait and don't do the distinction between that and the pure game design.

If I am wrong I would like some actual argument.

Because economy of scale? It's not like its as big of a burden as people make it out to be and it simplifies infrastructure. Less farms and more energy districts that would benefit from a nexus. Or be a megacorp and you don't even notice the increase in energy upkeep but still notice the less amount of farms you need. Excess food only gets sold anyways, might as well cut out the middleman.

I'm honestly disappointed if you think its a useless trait in a game that lets you stack modifiers to maximize output.

 

[Serenity84]

Do they assume that everyone has bought all of them?

Certainly not. It's why there is little to no interaction between the DLCs and they mostly just add inconsequential buttons to press without ever touching the core gameplay loop.

 

[Connacht]

Those are good suggestions, my friend! I intend to make all my fungoid empires to be radiotrophs and live in worlds with a high level of radiation -- like the ones in the mod Planetary Diversity - Exotic Worlds: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1732437279

Enjoy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus

 

[Orphalesion]

I mean I very much like the ideas presented.

But...wouldn't Phototropic just lead to Plantoid Empires plastering their planets with Generator Districts? That just doesn't fit very well with the close-to-nature Plantoid feel, imho.

Those are good suggestions, my friend! I intend to make all my fungoid empires to be radiotrophs and live in worlds with a high level of radiation -- like the ones in the mod Planetary Diversity - Exotic Worlds: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1732437279

I hope the author will update their Radiotropic worlds to work with these changes!

 

[glee8e]

Best example that I can share of an earlier design is Budding originally was a lot more powerful (around 0.05 assembly IIRC) but also increased housing usage and reduced normal pop growth. We decided that was a bit too complicated for the design and scaled it back.

It's a 3 point trait. Complication is sort of expected, no?

 

[Alfray Stryke]

It's a 3 point trait. Complication is sort of expected, no?

Cost for traits don't always reflect complexity and nor should it, for example Venerable is fairly expensive and yet simple (4 points for +80 year leader lifespan). In this case our testing found that not having the additional modifiers was better.

I hope the author will update their Radiotropic worlds to work with these changes!

For any decent modder this'll be an easy change to make, there's a has_phototrophic_energy_upkeep scripted trigger, so they'll just have to add their modded planet types to the exclusion list.

 

[Millbot]

I know it's a long shot, but would absolutely love to see a bioship set added to plantoids. Was discussing the changes on another forum and someone had brought up bioships because of catalytic processing. It occurred to me that there is more than one way to grow a bio ship. Most likely think of fleshy vessels when they mention bioships, ala Starcraft's Zerg. That said, you could also have bioships that are woodlike and/or leafy in appearance.

The current plantoid ship set really doesn't have a woody or leaflike appearance. It's more metal and glass put together with plant themes in mind. So could justify a bioship set that has a woody and leafy appearance. It would be nice to see more shipsets and more ships designs that have a motif concept similar to lithoid ships. Where they don't look like someone took metal and glass and shot for a them. They look like they are made of rocks and crystals.

I'm liking the other stuff and I'm hoping maybe we get an origin for plantoids but could understand if we don't.

 

[Primarch Victus]

You are forgeting of biomechanical ships, my friend: ships that match metal and wiring(?) with biological components -- see Moya in Farscape, for example.

 

[Primarch Victus]

Because economy of scale? It's not like its as big of a burden as people make it out to be and it simplifies infrastructure. Less farms and more energy districts that would benefit from a nexus. Or be a megacorp and you don't even notice the increase in energy upkeep but still notice the less amount of farms you need. Excess food only gets sold anyways, might as well cut out the middleman.

I'm honestly disappointed if you think its a useless trait in a game that lets you stack modifiers to maximize output.

Phototrophic is a flavor trait, blorg brain! You know, the kind of optional trait that you uses to make your empire more unique? Yes. kid! I said "optional" -- you will only use those flavor traits -- like those in the Lithoids Species Pack -- if you want! Also, many of us are not so stupid or incompetent to not be able to balance Agricultural and Energy Districts. In other words, please. Stop. Insulting. The. Intelligence. Of. Your. Fellow. Players.

Enjoy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus

Why do you think I am turning all my Fungoid empires into Radiotrophs?

 

[majikero]

Phototrophic is a flavor trait, blorg brain! You know, the kind of optional trait that you uses to make your empire more unique? Yes. kid! I said "optional" -- you will only use those flavor traits -- like those in the Lithoids Species Pack -- if you want! Also, many of us are not so stupid or incompetent to not be able to balance Agricultural and Energy Districts. In other words, please. Stop. Insulting. The. Intelligence. Of. Your. Fellow. Players.

I know its a flavor trait. But its not a useless trait nor a negative trait and anyone who says otherwise cannot math. It fits as a 1 point trait since its a pretty minor change towards energy efficiency and honestly, its a lot more useful than Resilient or Traditional. If people wanted it as a 0 point trait, there would be a larger bonus and penalties like budding growth attached to it but at the cost of being unable to live anywhere but their planet type. Like the opposite of the lithoid trait which grows slow but can live basically anywhere.

 

[Tech Noir Synth]

I'm honestly disappointed if you think its a useless trait

The truth can often be dissapointing. Though "useless" is not the word I would use. It does something. But you don't want to spend a trait point and a trait slot on what this trait does. Its neither worth a trait point, nor is it worth a trait slot. Which is why I suggested to make this trait free. And make it not take up a trait slot either. Give players the ability to add this, if they want. Or leave it.

Its important that we keep telling Paradox that effects like these are not what we want. You cannot excuse something as bad as this with 3 lines of text and call it a day. We want effects which are worthwhile and fun to use and if they change the way we play, then its even better.

 

[Gabriel12012002]

Hello, as a biologist I would like to point out that:

1- Fungi aren't phototrophs. Moreover, they aren't even closely related to plants while actually they are to animals (phylogenesis, biochemistry and genetics). It is inaccurate to treat fungoids and plantoids as similar in their possible capabilities, if they are based on fungi and plants. I'd rather give further characterization to fungoids with traits that could be used to customize them as symbiotic lifeforms, particularly with some parasitic or parasitoid traits (e.g. Cordyceps, which inspired The Last of Us), or mutualistic traits (e.g. mycorrhizae), or even both;

2- Phototrophic organisms convert light into metabolic energy (e.g. to produce carbohydrates through photosynthesis). That means that they need to be exposed to sunlight, not that they need to be connected to an energy grid with power plants that are required for their upkeep just like pops eat food. I would change to a simple reduction in food upkeep, or replace it with something else;

3- Maybe we can allow the phototrophic trait for fungoids because we consider them in a symbiotic relationship with a photosynthetic organism (e.g. lichens), and make a bit of abstraction about their sustenance. But then there are some cases of symbiotic association between animals and photosynthetic dinoflagellates (e.g. zooxanthellae within corals or sponges), animals that acquire chloroplasts from the algae they eat (e.g. Elysa chlorotica), and animals that possess pigments that are suggested to be capable of accumulating small quantities of energy from exposition to light (i.e. Vespa orientalis, although it's still debated, but nothing prevents this to inspire a videogame). So I wouldn't force a very abstract "phototrophic" trait to be restricted to plants. What if I want to play a molluscoid species that lives in symbiosis with photosynthetic algae, reducing their need for food?

§

I am oversimplifying, and I didn't read the whole topic to check if someone already said something similar, but I hope that this might give ideas either to developers or modders.

1 Radiotrophic fungi exist.
2 The energy upkeep is used to simulate the use of artificial lighting, as not all pops will be constantly exposed to the sun, as they work inside closed buildings.

 

[Objulen]

I know its a flavor trait. But its not a useless trait nor a negative trait and anyone who says otherwise cannot math. It fits as a 1 point trait since its a pretty minor change towards energy efficiency and honestly, its a lot more useful than Resilient or Traditional. If people wanted it as a 0 point trait, there would be a larger bonus and penalties like budding growth attached to it but at the cost of being unable to live anywhere but their planet type. Like the opposite of the lithoid trait which grows slow but can live basically anywhere.

How are you concluding that it has any real value? When you compare food and energy they:

A) Have the same production values
B) Pops with this trait consume the same total resources.

A version of this for Lithoids were be great, for example, because Technicians make more energy than Miners make minerals. But that's not the case for Food.

So you're spending a trait point to shift food cost to energy costs. Unless you have a way to combo off of that, it's not a net gain on the whole, unlike every other 1-point trait. Resilient or Traditional may not be go-to traits in most circumstances, but there's a real, tangible benefit to having either of them.

The only SE empire that will have a significant gain from Phototropic are Void Born empires, since they don't have Agriculture districts, and they directly gain building slots by being Phototrophic. There might be some subtle benefit for a roboticist/synth ascension empire built up with a greater focus on energy production over time, but it's rather negligible - it's not that hard in the early game to juggle workers between technician and farmer jobs.

DA and RS MEs can get some benefit from Photrophic drones/bio-pops, since they'd be able to minimize their food needs even further.. This is particularly true for RS's, since the number of useful traits on bio-pops is limited, such as Conservationist, Traditional, and Nomadic, and you can easily add negative traits like Fleeting, Weak, and Decadent with no real repercussions. For DA drones it's got more competition, but synergizes well enough with the lack of food production on Machine Worlds.

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

I will again second the opinion that Phototrophic should really be a 0-cost, 0-slot trait.