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I think you raise some really good points. Stakeholder diversity is paramount (content creators and regular players). And if this system doesn’t change, it’s also up to us to communicate with our preferred YouTubers about the issues we’re facing so that it can flow its way into those conversations.
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Thank you. We have been waiting for someone to just acknowledge that what we received was not at all what was promised (or what was paid for - I am an Ultimate buyer too).
Thank you for admitting that, and thank you for your apology.
Thank you for admitting that, and thank you for your apology.
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Thanks to CO and Paradox for this update. I had totally lost hope for the game and this helps me regain some.
+ The game is not abandoned
+ Finally a communication adressing critical issues
+ Apologies and acknowledgment of errors
+ Refund and compensation for Beach Properties
+ Focus on fixing the base game, priority on free patches and updates before paid content
+ Advisory meeting with players representatives
+ Finally the start of an answer for console players (not concerned myself but was tired of reading their - perfectly understandable - spamming of the "when" question)
+ Good to know that PC team and Console team are working separately (that was not so transparent before, I think this statement will contribute to reassuring a lot of us)
? Will the next creator packs (including those given in compensation) have a similar content/price ratio than Beach Properties? If so, it's true that 39.99 is probably overpriced. 19.99 would be ideal, 29.99 understandable. 39.99 feels like too much (as other people said, with that you can buy a full game). Howether if they include more content than Beach Properties, then it could be great.
? Speaking of those creator packs, will you stop to advertise different levels of the same asset as multiple assets? This felt particularly misleading to a lot of us, so I strongly hope it was the last time.
? I strongly hope Paradox & CO will not try to use the Advisory Meeting as PR by trying to control the narrative or censoring free speech from players representatives. If it becomes just another marketing tool, a lot of players, myself included, will most likely be disapointed again. We expect honesty and transparency.
? Please no professional influencers as "players representatives". It's not a matter of who exactly, Biffa, CPP or whoever would be more or less the same. Please choose actual players, not youtubers.
? Can we expect more engagement from CO on bug reports and suggestions threads?
? When can we expect the next free patch/update? (no need for an exact date if you don't have one, but an estimation would be great)
? Will you stop adding trees and other map-detailing resources to the next Creator Packs? A lot of people have clearly expressed why this is a problem, and would appreciate to know if you understand and agree
? Following the "no beach" drama, will the game include proper beaches someday? If so, is this already planned or not yet?
? And while I'm at it, any hint on a estimation for bikes and stairs?
- Apologies and acknowledgment of errors should have come 6 months ago
- Still no information on the reasons behind delays ("while we are working on these updates, they haven’t happened at a speed or magnitude that is acceptable" => why?)
- No refund possible for UE buyers (unfortunate but still thanks to have explained why it's not possible)
- True that radio stations have a very low value (I never listen to in-game music while playing, always to my own playlists instead), so maybe not so good looking to include those as compensations
- Fixing the game before releasing paid content should have been the main strategy since the launch
- Still no mention of a roadmap, despite it has been clearly and repeatedly asked by hundreds of players. Why is this so hard?
+ The game is not abandoned
+ Finally a communication adressing critical issues
+ Apologies and acknowledgment of errors
+ Refund and compensation for Beach Properties
+ Focus on fixing the base game, priority on free patches and updates before paid content
+ Advisory meeting with players representatives
+ Finally the start of an answer for console players (not concerned myself but was tired of reading their - perfectly understandable - spamming of the "when" question)
+ Good to know that PC team and Console team are working separately (that was not so transparent before, I think this statement will contribute to reassuring a lot of us)
? Will the next creator packs (including those given in compensation) have a similar content/price ratio than Beach Properties? If so, it's true that 39.99 is probably overpriced. 19.99 would be ideal, 29.99 understandable. 39.99 feels like too much (as other people said, with that you can buy a full game). Howether if they include more content than Beach Properties, then it could be great.
? Speaking of those creator packs, will you stop to advertise different levels of the same asset as multiple assets? This felt particularly misleading to a lot of us, so I strongly hope it was the last time.
? I strongly hope Paradox & CO will not try to use the Advisory Meeting as PR by trying to control the narrative or censoring free speech from players representatives. If it becomes just another marketing tool, a lot of players, myself included, will most likely be disapointed again. We expect honesty and transparency.
? Please no professional influencers as "players representatives". It's not a matter of who exactly, Biffa, CPP or whoever would be more or less the same. Please choose actual players, not youtubers.
? Can we expect more engagement from CO on bug reports and suggestions threads?
? When can we expect the next free patch/update? (no need for an exact date if you don't have one, but an estimation would be great)
? Will you stop adding trees and other map-detailing resources to the next Creator Packs? A lot of people have clearly expressed why this is a problem, and would appreciate to know if you understand and agree
? Following the "no beach" drama, will the game include proper beaches someday? If so, is this already planned or not yet?
? And while I'm at it, any hint on a estimation for bikes and stairs?
- Apologies and acknowledgment of errors should have come 6 months ago
- Still no information on the reasons behind delays ("while we are working on these updates, they haven’t happened at a speed or magnitude that is acceptable" => why?)
- No refund possible for UE buyers (unfortunate but still thanks to have explained why it's not possible)
- True that radio stations have a very low value (I never listen to in-game music while playing, always to my own playlists instead), so maybe not so good looking to include those as compensations
- Fixing the game before releasing paid content should have been the main strategy since the launch
- Still no mention of a roadmap, despite it has been clearly and repeatedly asked by hundreds of players. Why is this so hard?
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From the FAQ:
"If you did not purchase the Asset Pack while it was available, then you will receive the content in the next patch in about two weeks."
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While this hasn’t been the easiest road, I am happy we finally got here. This is the message we have all been waiting for ever since the game was released in an unfinished state. Thank you for being honest and truthful and I hope these future changes hold up. I lost hope for CS2 for a while, but I am glad the right way has been found and positive things are in the future. I wish you all the best of luck in your efforts to continuously improve the game. Thank you all for your continued dedication.
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Great to get an update and satisfied with the plan forward.
The pricing model for future DLC seems very concerning though.
I bought the UE but for future DLC I doubt I'll be a day 1 buyer if a CCP/Asset pack is priced at $10. That would mean an expansion DLC (one of many based on history) could be $20-$30? That's the price of a standalone game.
Based on the above I think the statement that the UE owners are getting $40 worth of "free" content is a bit of a stretch, but I'll take it at this point
The pricing model for future DLC seems very concerning though.
I bought the UE but for future DLC I doubt I'll be a day 1 buyer if a CCP/Asset pack is priced at $10. That would mean an expansion DLC (one of many based on history) could be $20-$30? That's the price of a standalone game.
Based on the above I think the statement that the UE owners are getting $40 worth of "free" content is a bit of a stretch, but I'll take it at this point
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To be honest, this is the most I’ve ever seen a game company do for their players. I respect that a lot. Thank you for not gaslighting us into thinking this is acceptable. I’m not sure how much weight one comment will hold but here is what I’d love to see fixed:
-The land value system is still incredibly broken. I can’t figure out how to stop rent from raising too high and losing all of my low density residential.
-Low density residential is essentially not needed after milestone 2. The demand never increases and forces me to place giant apartment buildings to tower over the rest of my city way too early on.
-The map editor is way too clunky to use. Even a simple fix like the objects menu remembering what tab you were last in would drastically improve the user experience but really that whole menu needs a major rework. However, I hope we don’t have to wait for an entire rework just for some majorly needed QOL updates to its existing UI.
-Please give us the ability to zone/unzone roads. This is not necessary to put onto modders as it’s been added to the base game in CS1, albeit very late in development.
-I don’t understand forcing stop signs for entire intersections. I would like to have stop signs entering a busy collector road instead of forcing the a 3 or 4 way stop.
-In asset packs, we expect enough assets to make stand alone towns that feel unique. This includes storefronts, skyscrapers, and more than 4 trees to name a few. New schools and utilities like fire and police would also be appreciated but if anything needed to be cut, I suppose those would be the ones I could compromise on.
-In about half of my saves, placing down a medical facility is never enough to satisfy my cims. I think this is a big because there is always 99% availability when cons complain.
-The school system is still incredibly broken. My offices are never ever able to grow because not enough cons have high enough education. Maybe spawning some highly educated workers in the early game would help.
-The radio is always telling me I have a housing shortage when I have a lot of residential zones to be built. I have yet to understand why it triggers or how to prevent it. Is it just scripted to always play within 10 minutes of a new game?
-Why are we forced to have sub buildings attached to the main ones? I understand that it provides a challenge to retrofit facilities later in the game but that just becomes more frustrating the further you get. I would understand if it had to be in a radius around the main building but forcing it to touch is incredibly frustrating, especially for things like the high school which is hard enough to fit as it is. Adding a football field makes it only possible to fit on the outskirts of a city.
-There should be shorter building options for high density residential and low income housing. There are many examples of two-three story apartment complexes all over America and I’m sure in other countries as well. Adding high density residential at milestone 3 and forcing us to have verticality that goes way beyond what’s already available just makes the city look awkward and unrealistic.
-Industries feel a bit empty. I dislike that buildings spawn inside of the disengaged zones Willy nilly. I have no control over it and if I just want farmland, I’m forced to have buildings in the middle of it, littering the entire landscape. It would be way better to either give us the ability to place it or just don’t add buildings without the players input or consent.
-Why is it up to mods like Move It needed to make adjustments to roads? I don’t understand why we are limited to the tools for placing the roads but then are completely incapable of adjusting the road (like a city planner could do on paper before building) and have to be limited to the placement tools. Adjusting the curve after the fact should be in the base game. I understand not being able to move nodes, although I don’t think it’d be game breaking, but the curves could definitely be editable. The placement toolset should be used to achieve a good result quickly but we should have the ability in the base game to achieve a desired look with some fiddling.
-The modding menu needs to be able to hold the position I’m at when I click on a mod. This is SO ANNOYING. It encourages you NOT to go into the mod to learn more about it or else you will have to scroll the entire list again. This was usually combated in Steam by opening the mod page in a new tab but I can’t even do that.
Overall I am hopeful that the game will grow into what it could be and its messages like the one you posted today that keeps my hopes up.
-The land value system is still incredibly broken. I can’t figure out how to stop rent from raising too high and losing all of my low density residential.
-Low density residential is essentially not needed after milestone 2. The demand never increases and forces me to place giant apartment buildings to tower over the rest of my city way too early on.
-The map editor is way too clunky to use. Even a simple fix like the objects menu remembering what tab you were last in would drastically improve the user experience but really that whole menu needs a major rework. However, I hope we don’t have to wait for an entire rework just for some majorly needed QOL updates to its existing UI.
-Please give us the ability to zone/unzone roads. This is not necessary to put onto modders as it’s been added to the base game in CS1, albeit very late in development.
-I don’t understand forcing stop signs for entire intersections. I would like to have stop signs entering a busy collector road instead of forcing the a 3 or 4 way stop.
-In asset packs, we expect enough assets to make stand alone towns that feel unique. This includes storefronts, skyscrapers, and more than 4 trees to name a few. New schools and utilities like fire and police would also be appreciated but if anything needed to be cut, I suppose those would be the ones I could compromise on.
-In about half of my saves, placing down a medical facility is never enough to satisfy my cims. I think this is a big because there is always 99% availability when cons complain.
-The school system is still incredibly broken. My offices are never ever able to grow because not enough cons have high enough education. Maybe spawning some highly educated workers in the early game would help.
-The radio is always telling me I have a housing shortage when I have a lot of residential zones to be built. I have yet to understand why it triggers or how to prevent it. Is it just scripted to always play within 10 minutes of a new game?
-Why are we forced to have sub buildings attached to the main ones? I understand that it provides a challenge to retrofit facilities later in the game but that just becomes more frustrating the further you get. I would understand if it had to be in a radius around the main building but forcing it to touch is incredibly frustrating, especially for things like the high school which is hard enough to fit as it is. Adding a football field makes it only possible to fit on the outskirts of a city.
-There should be shorter building options for high density residential and low income housing. There are many examples of two-three story apartment complexes all over America and I’m sure in other countries as well. Adding high density residential at milestone 3 and forcing us to have verticality that goes way beyond what’s already available just makes the city look awkward and unrealistic.
-Industries feel a bit empty. I dislike that buildings spawn inside of the disengaged zones Willy nilly. I have no control over it and if I just want farmland, I’m forced to have buildings in the middle of it, littering the entire landscape. It would be way better to either give us the ability to place it or just don’t add buildings without the players input or consent.
-Why is it up to mods like Move It needed to make adjustments to roads? I don’t understand why we are limited to the tools for placing the roads but then are completely incapable of adjusting the road (like a city planner could do on paper before building) and have to be limited to the placement tools. Adjusting the curve after the fact should be in the base game. I understand not being able to move nodes, although I don’t think it’d be game breaking, but the curves could definitely be editable. The placement toolset should be used to achieve a good result quickly but we should have the ability in the base game to achieve a desired look with some fiddling.
-The modding menu needs to be able to hold the position I’m at when I click on a mod. This is SO ANNOYING. It encourages you NOT to go into the mod to learn more about it or else you will have to scroll the entire list again. This was usually combated in Steam by opening the mod page in a new tab but I can’t even do that.
Overall I am hopeful that the game will grow into what it could be and its messages like the one you posted today that keeps my hopes up.
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It has two sides. A DLC for 10 bucks is expensive, but I assume CO/PDX did get the message with the last horribly rated DLC.
They can charge 10 bucks if the content is outstanding, with many new features and assets.
If the pack is not great.... the ratings will be again at 10% and the sales may not bring in the costs. In the current situation, charging 10 bucks is a high risk because of the high expectations.
We will see how this plays out. Maybe the plan is to sell it for 10 bucks, but after a month, there is a sale for 5 bucks. It's not fair... but it's probably a reasonable strategy.
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Finally the needed update. I forgave a LOT because I’m a software engineer that understands the complexity of this game. Most people don’t have that perspective and they were right to feel scammed. This is the first step that was needed.
There are a few more things I think you can do to make a real difference in goodwill.
1. Give us a list of the major bugs you’re aware of and some basic information about the problem and fixes from a dev point of view. No marketing people scrubbing their responses. Let the community translate the meaning for non devs. Maybe open up a public version of your internal issue tracker.
Example: Sorted local mail doesn’t get delivered to post offices
When there aren’t enough semi trucks to deliver local mail, it never gets delivered to local post office. This causes mail to build up CX light
We identified the issue on <date> and started work on <date>. We encountered an issue with <related system> that is going to take some time to fix. We expect to ship a few incremental fixes over the coming patches.
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The developer in me hates asking for that but that kind of honesty would really let the community know that you’ve heard our issues and you’re actively working on the fixes.
2. At this point, the devs have areas they know are suboptimal and need refactoring to get real improvement. Tell us what they are. Be like “there’s a fundamental bottleneck in x job in large cities because of y computational conplexity”. That honesty will give us hope for the future.
3. Give us some insight into how you test the game. What is the qa process like? What size cities did they use? Do they manual test? Automatic test? How did they assure quality at the start and what are they doing differently now.
4. Let the community vote on the top issues. Using the list from point 1, give us a survey and let us vote on various priorities. Give us a series of choices like “would you rather we fix “A” or “B” then “A or C”. Use that to get the community rank of the biggest issues.
As a dev these would all help me feel better about the game. Thank you.
There are a few more things I think you can do to make a real difference in goodwill.
1. Give us a list of the major bugs you’re aware of and some basic information about the problem and fixes from a dev point of view. No marketing people scrubbing their responses. Let the community translate the meaning for non devs. Maybe open up a public version of your internal issue tracker.
Example: Sorted local mail doesn’t get delivered to post offices
When there aren’t enough semi trucks to deliver local mail, it never gets delivered to local post office. This causes mail to build up CX light
We identified the issue on <date> and started work on <date>. We encountered an issue with <related system> that is going to take some time to fix. We expect to ship a few incremental fixes over the coming patches.
—-
The developer in me hates asking for that but that kind of honesty would really let the community know that you’ve heard our issues and you’re actively working on the fixes.
2. At this point, the devs have areas they know are suboptimal and need refactoring to get real improvement. Tell us what they are. Be like “there’s a fundamental bottleneck in x job in large cities because of y computational conplexity”. That honesty will give us hope for the future.
3. Give us some insight into how you test the game. What is the qa process like? What size cities did they use? Do they manual test? Automatic test? How did they assure quality at the start and what are they doing differently now.
4. Let the community vote on the top issues. Using the list from point 1, give us a survey and let us vote on various priorities. Give us a series of choices like “would you rather we fix “A” or “B” then “A or C”. Use that to get the community rank of the biggest issues.
As a dev these would all help me feel better about the game. Thank you.
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Thank you. For all the ridiculing I've done on this forum, I do truly support you and I wish you and the team the best, despite the obvious lack of communication. Good to see you still seem committed to the game. CS2 can become a truly great game if you can work out all the issues. Again, best of luck.
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Obviously, but that's crying over spilt milk at this point.
Seems pretty obvious to me, the game's insanely ambitious and complicated and the simulation is probably a beast to get right.
If you read the post, it says they're going to sit down and collaborate with CS2 players on the way forward.
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If the deal is for a year, by the time the game reaches a decent enough state it'll be removed from Game Pass I guess. That's disappointing.
And I still see no mention of an expected timeframe or even effort to include modern upscaling methods in the still heaviest to run game I have ever seen. Is that altogether abandoned?
And I still see no mention of an expected timeframe or even effort to include modern upscaling methods in the still heaviest to run game I have ever seen. Is that altogether abandoned?
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Youtubers have fan bases that they communicate and interact with frequently as part of their job, where they can hear people's opinions on aspects of the game. That makes them able to represent the interests of a larger player base than just themselves to at least some degree. What "actual player" can say the same?
Randomly selected focus groups might be a reasonable alternative, but also a lot of work.
Randomly selected focus groups might be a reasonable alternative, but also a lot of work.
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We love the transparency, I have never lost hope on the devs, I like seeing that both the publisher and the developers working together to resolve the disappointments, I send love and support trough this though journey <3
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You're right. My post was mostly expressing my own feelings after reading OP. I had no intention to complain for nothing, sorry.
Of course the game is ambitious, but maybe there's more that can be said to explain how CO intend to work on updates at a "more acceptable speed and magnitude"?
It was not clear to me if that statement was only a way to anounce for the Advisory Meeting or if there was more to expect. It's still not clear if a proper roadmap will be available though.
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Maybe it is a language issue, but my understanding of what was said is that the TOTAL value of the 3 radio stations and 3 content creator packs would be $40 - not each content creator pack.
So since the radio stations are around $6.00 US (if I remember correctly), 3 of them total $18.00. That leave $22.00 for the 3 content creator packs - a bit over $7.00 US each.
That's in line with the content creator packs in CS1 - which have a varying amount of assets and a varying amount of use for each player. I have some of them, and have no interest at all in some of them.
I am hopeful that the 3 free content creator packs I get will have assets I will want to use, but there is no guarantee. (a pack of vehicles would be totally useless to me, but hey - some people seem to like them.)
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6$ for a radio station seems too much, but I don't care since I'm not interested in those. If creator packs are around 7$ it could be nice. I'll get the first ones for free as a UE holder anyway (and I'm honestly very thankfull for that), but like other people I was a bit worried regarding the prices for future creator packs and expansions. I hope it will be something around what you said.
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I'd be more fine with radio station compensation if the game would just remember to turn those godawful annoying ads off. Instead I'm forced to disable them manually every single time I start the game, it's a minor annoyance but it's one that's consistent every game.
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