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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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This map really impresses upon me the make or break factor of the Hundred Years' war. Unsurprising I know, but now that it's all laid out in front of me I can't help but get a dreadful feeling. I'm sure the developers have this as their top priority but it just seems like such a difficult thing to really portray accurately. It needs to be an immersive experience and the actors in it should act in their best interest.

I know markets are dynamic, far from final, you get to create markets, et cetera. Still, Flanders, especially Brugge, being part of the Paris market feels incredibly against the spirit of the situation. Despite the count sucking up to the French (the change to being part of the french in some capacity was a good idea) it should make no sense for him, let alone the burghers, to be part of the Paris market. It would be considerably less profitable and the existing trade relations wouldn't allow it.

There really should be a Brugge market to portray how England could exert their influence during the war, local trade among the dutch and the existing relations leading up to a strong hanseatic league. This also in combination with the usual french vassals shenanigans.

I'm sorry, my irrational fear of hexagons can't be controlled. Any chance we could get a time frame for when we get to see the rough scale and detail of the Hundred Years' war?
 
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Hey, very good job ! Just a tiny mistake : you call the Millau region in Rouergue as "Aubrac". It’s incorrect, since the Aubrac mountains are actually north of it, at the meeting point of Aurillac, Gévaudan and Rouergue provinces.
You should call it simply "Milhavés", with "Milhau" as the capital.
Mercé, I had some difficulties with the parçans of the mountainous areas, and honestly, also the Gascon lands, since I am most of all familiar with Provençal lands and parçans and such
 
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I do not much understand the difference between "grassland" and "farmland". Do you mean "bocage" and "open field" ?
It would make more sense to use those last terms, which are used by geographers and describe really well the agricultural space from the Middle Ages to our days. I think you could better dispatch those two categories in every different regions. Here is the map I used at university.

In yellow are the openfields (farmlands). In others colors — light and dark green, light and dark orange, light pink — should be the bocages (grasslands). Gray/blue and green/blue were swamps. This landscapes nearly didn’t change from Middle Ages to nowadays for geological and climatic reasons, so you can use that modern map !

Do not hesitate to ask me if you need translations !
 

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Bonjour :)

Peut-on créer de nouveaux vassaux et y jouer (comme eu4) ? Comme nous incarner un petit pays de notre ville natale et conquérir le monde en représentant fièrement notre ville d'amour. (voir ce nom affiché sur toute la carte par exemple ;) )
 
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Say if France conquered some land from the HRE or the Iberian kings, can France form new appanages with it instead of annexing it as crownland/annexing it for existing vassals?
 
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Why is Nice of Provençal culture and not Niçard, given that its dialect is strongly influenced by Western Ligurian? Linguistic studies confirm that Niçard is completely autonomous from Provençal, making it practically a transitional language from the true Gallo-Italic to the Occitano-Romance.
 
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View attachment 1138529Do we need that many French cultures in the game? IMO some of them will serve no mechanical purpose. I'd reduce the number of them.
Limosin and Auvèrnhat Occitan are about as different as Norwegian and Danish. Alpine/Arpin is also a lot more conservative than Provençal, a language I speak.

As for angevin culture, Angevin culture had in this period a great influence on English culture, which Francien culture did not have. Many middle English words are specifically Angevin in origin.

Burgundian and Franc-Comtois are also much different, the latter is more "Arpitan" in nature.

These cultures are excellently divided, in my opinion, and it is a massive improvement from the crude, simpleton, and oftentimes incorrect divisions of EU4. I wouldn't change a thing, this is the level of fidelity and detail and care the cultural diversity of any given land deserves. And not just Germany/Italy, as was in EU4.

In fact, if I could change anything, I'd add the Aguiainese Occitans, though I'm not sure if they existed anymore in this period.
 
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Why is Nice of Provençal culture and not Niçard, given that its dialect is strongly influenced by Western Ligurian? Linguistic studies confirm that Niçard is completely autonomous from Provençal, making it practically a transitional language from the true Gallo-Italic to the Occitano-Romance.
There should also be a Valadian culture in the Piedmontese Alps! The Occitan they speak there is distinct from Vivaroarpin and Provençau.
 
Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.
Whether it's the same duchy or not is debatable, the duchy was not escheated to the French crown, king John II inherited it through his mother Joan of Burgundy. John formally merged the duchy with the crown upon inheriting it in 1361, but this never successfully came into effect because of opposition from the Burgundian estates, despite efforts John never overcame this, gave up on integrating Burgundy and appointed his son Philip the bold governor of Burgundy in June of 1363 and granted him the duchy in September of that year.
 
If Tinto decided to not split up Spanish further and to consolidate Dutch cultures into a single Low Franconian, I struggle to understand the level of granularity seen in France and Germany and what it actually achieves.

Just because 2 dialects are not the same it doesnt mean they should be represented in game. This is a complete non sequitur, at this point divide Norman into Nornorman and Sudnorman based on the Joret line.
 
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You speak Danisn, Norwegian, Limousin and Auvergnat and Provencal?
I do not speak Auvèrnhat and Limosin, not well, anyways. But I know Catalan and French, (in addition to Provençal,) so in terms of having access to the literature, there are no challenges.
I actually do speak both Danish and Norwegian, too. Funny that you'd ask :)
 
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Regardless, this is an excellent, a brilliant standard and example for detail, fidelity, and flavor that should be applied in other areas also. France is not a monolith, nor are the Langues d'Oc or Oïl. I do not see any reason to try to dumb down the beautiful cultural mosaic represented elsewhere so we'll (cf. Germany, Italy).

I must though agree, Spain ought not be monocultural either. Perhaps there is a way to introduce an emergent Andalucia culture there?
 
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I do not speak Auvèrnhat and Limosin, not well, anyways. But I know Catalan and French, (in addition to Provençal,) so in terms of having access to the literature, there are no challenges.
I actually do speak both Danish and Norwegian, too. Funny that you'd ask :)
Well then feel free to provide that data even if untranslated, because as far as I'm concerned it's just a subjective assessment if not made by an actual linguist based on some objective metric(lexical difference for example)
Regardless, this is an excellent, a brilliant standard and example for detail, fidelity, and flavor that should be applied in other areas also. France is not a monolith, nor are the Langues d'Oc or Oïl. I do not see any reason to try to dumb down the beautiful cultural mosaic represented elsewhere so we'll (cf. Germany, Italy).

I must though agree, Spain ought not be monocultural either. Perhaps there is a way to introduce an emergent Andalucia culture there?
It's not just Andalucia, its Valencian, Asturian, Cantabrian. We need an actual metric for what is a seperate category and what is not.
The fact Paradox went in the opposite direction in the Netherland tinto map also is weird.