Tinto Talks #18 - 26th of June 2024

[alexkowal123]

OK. I think that is splitting hairs because neglect is an active choice taken by countries and not just 'how it is' but I don't care to be pulled into such a semantic argument.

I think the player needs to have the option to ignore literacy (ie not forced to actively reject or hamper) or actively go out of their way to improve it. Since we're playing as a state, it should be in the background for most of the game's period

 

[DominusNovus]

I don't recall ideas that I rejected.

Shouldn’t you keep a record, if only so you don’t waste time on repeated requests?

 

[Sutixela]

Damn I wish I could work with you guys here at Tinto, your work environment seems awesome and you people too. I've solicited Higher Education (Grado Superior) in programming to legitimate myself with a Degree, but my chances of accessing are grim. Sad. History + game development, here in my homeland, literally my dream work. I'll probably end up working as a civil servant or in the army tho. This f*cking sucks. Sorry I wanted to vent.

 

[pimvd007]

Person with slight colourblindness here, the red modifiers on brown background are nearly invisible to me, had to zoom in a lot to see there was anything even there

 

[Hawk123456789]

To the same place the money building ships or roads or buildings go to.

The money to build ships or buildings will be used to buy goods and pay labor (I supposed). So that means enacting policies will also cost goods or labor, for lobbying or socializing? If that’s the case, will these cost be realized in one go or gradually over time?

 

[SaintDaveUK]

Apologies if it’s been mentioned but with the current background, my colourblindness makes the current “red” negative modifiers essentially invisible unless I put my eye about a cm from the screen. A tweak or colourblind settings would be appreciated!

Please change colour of background or font of debuffs/minuses. Current red on green (? - (I am colorblind to some degree) in unreadable.

@SaintDaveUK
The red text on a green background is illegible for me as a colorblind person. I thought at first there was no modifier there!

Person with slight colourblindness here, the red modifiers on brown background are nearly invisible to me, had to zoom in a lot to see there was anything even there

Thanks for your feedback on the colour blindness. We don't have any colour blind people designing UI so it isn't always at the forefront of our minds, so we are sorry about that. Colour blind support is really important to us though, and it's something we are scheduled to work on in future.

 

[Zanza]

This system seems to be a significant improvement over the many different systems used in EU4 to achieve this kind of differentiation and the time dimension in introduction is also an interesting consideration.

 

[eddin2]

OK. I think that is splitting hairs because neglect is an active choice taken by countries and not just 'how it is' but I don't care to be pulled into such a semantic argument.

It's not about semantics really, doesn't matter which words we use, states/rulers just didn't care about literacy during most of the game span. Actively surpressing people becoming more literate requiers effort from the ruler and/or government, and not caring about it, isn't activity.

 

[Johan]

Shouldn’t you keep a record, if only so you don’t waste time on repeated requests?

yeah, lol.

here new employee is the 25,000 pages of "rejected design ideas", please memorize it all before suggesting a new idea.

 

[Nikicaga]

We do that already Any more suggestions for parliament names?

For what the parliament represents (estates coming together to make important decisions), the best name in medieval and early modern Serbia is Sabor (famous ones include the Deževa Sabor in 1282 which deposed King Dragutin in favor of his younger brother while keeping some land, or the much later the Orašac and Takovo Sabors in 1804 and 1814 which started the First and Second Serbian Revolution). In Bosnia, it's name was Stanak.

Državni sabor u srednjovekovnoj Srbiji — Википедија

sr.m.wikipedia.org

State assembly in medieval Serbia - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Do the estates also get special names in various countries or cultures? In that case, Vlastela is the obvious one for Nobility in Serbian culture states.

 

[GeneralUrist]

There were a few institutional advances in some parts of the Catholic world that led to 'State Inquisitors'; one of the triggers of it is not being the Pope (obviously), and the other is culture-tied (as a way of simplifying those institutional advances), making it available, among others, to Iberian countries. But then other institutional advances made the Inquisition a key institution in early modern Spain,

Why not use the literally called "institutions" mechanic you're going to be talking about next week for those "institutional advances"? Plus in the previous Tinto Talks on POPs and migration Johan said he really disliked the idea of making any Culture inherently better at things, so why are you OK with depicting E.G. Spanish people as inherently more capable at organizing state-run inquisitions? Visions seem a bit in conflict here.

 

[Nikicaga]

Why not use the literally called "institutions" mechanic you're going to be talking about next week for those "institutional advances"? Plus in the previous Tinto Talks on POPs and migration Johan said he really disliked the idea of making any Culture inherently better at things, so why are you OK with depicting E.G. Spanish people as inherently more capable at organizing state-run inquisitions? Visions seem a bit in conflict here.

I get the vibe that Institutions are much like in EU4, a few important advances that spread across the world. It's not really a concept that works if there were a 100 of them

This seems like an acceptable simplification tbh

 

[Nikicaga]

Why not use the literally called "institutions" mechanic you're going to be talking about next week for those "institutional advances"? Plus in the previous Tinto Talks on POPs and migration Johan said he really disliked the idea of making any Culture inherently better at things, so why are you OK with depicting E.G. Spanish people as inherently more capable at organizing state-run inquisitions? Visions seem a bit in conflict here.

I get the vibe that Institutions are much like in EU4, a few important advances that spread across the world. It's not really a concept that works if there were a 100 of them

This seems like an acceptable simplification tbh

 

[DominusNovus]

yeah, lol.

here new employee is the 25,000 pages of "rejected design ideas", please memorize it all before suggesting a new idea.

I would hope they can do a quick ctrl-f of the document?

I mean, when people file bug reports on here, there is an expectation that we search to make sure if it has already been reported.

 

[FarsenFSD]

In Portugal succession law was different than many other european kingdoms in that women could be heirs and take the throne, will there be a succession law that would correctly portray this or will Portugal have a "salic law" as depicted in the picture?

(To add to the topic, this difference is the reason why english language sources and historians not uncommonly call the last rulling dinasty of Portugal "House of Braganza-Saxe-Coburg and Gotha" while portuguese sources and historians call it simply "House of Braganza/Casa de Bragança", since according to traditional portuguese laws the original Bragança dinasty kept living through D. Maria II and her heirs, instead of a separate branch having been created.)

 

[Pavía]

It's true that you are a colleague I knew about the Liber Augustalis, but still I would distinguish between the early "civil law" (maybe it could be labelled in game as jus commune) and the post Napoleonic civil law. In the medieval conception (correct me if I am wrong) the king is mainly seen as a rex iudex more than as a legislator, the final appeal. Their powers are exercised mostly through adjudication than codification. For the same reason we all remember specifically those few kings that codified law: it was an exceptional action. My point is that the concept of 'codex' and 'codification' is quite different across from the ages. Finally, the essential traits of modern civil law are 1) written law prevails over customs; 2) a new written law automatically overrules an incompatible old law. I would say that most European polities in 1337, due to how far the king was and the lack of jurists, used to apply local customs before statues. Also, it was still up to debate if a law of the king incompatible with "higher" norms (i.e. against religious norms, canon law or a long establishment provision of Justinian; but it will take time before defining a hierarchy of legal sources ) was to be respected. I think that Gregorius VII even authorised subjects to rebel against tyrants who violated canon law (that is, who didn't obey him). Btw, I study economic law and it has been sometimes since I delved more on systemic and historical aspects, perhaps I will see where your vision will lead you and then come back with more grounded suggestions). Also, my professor of legal history was a true papist, his course was all on Dante's De monarchia, so I may underestimate the power of the king before Bodin Thanks for engaging in some scholarly debate.

The Early and High Medieval rulers were seen more as judges than as legislators, that's correct, although not always (e.g. Anglo-Saxon kings started developing their own set of legal acts already in the 10th century, before the Danish and Norman conquests). However, the Reception marks the milestone after when medieval rulers started acting and being regarded more actively as legislators. Let's put an example from the Siete Partidas, one of those 13th-century legal codes, ordered by Alfonso X of Castile c. 1256. In the First Partida (book), the first title, law 12, 'Who has the power to make laws', clearly estates: 'Emperor, or king can make laws over the peoples of his lordship, and no other has the power to make civil laws: except, if it would by their permission. And those made in a different way, don't have the name or the force of laws, and shouldn't have value at any time.' And, regarding the legal order of precedence, in 1348 King Alfonso XI established in the 'Ordenamiento de Alcalá' how it should be in the Crown of Castile: First, royal acts, as those granted in that Ordenamiento (Statute); then, the different written fueros (custumes) already in place, or granted by future kings; in third place, the Siete Partidas, where neither a disposition of an ordenamiento or fuero would be in place; and, finally, the king had final interpretation over any matter in case of doubt or silence among the precedent legal sources. That means that the ruler would have the first and last word in the act of legislation. And something important, regarding fueros: either if they were regional, local, or estate ones, they had to be granted by the king on a written disposition, or otherwise, they wouldn't be considered valid. This was only applied to Civil Law, of course, as Canon Law was different (and even with that, the Primera Partida is basically a civil-canon compendium, establishing the relationship between both types of laws).

As a final note, 'Civil Law' may still be better than 'Ius Commune' as a game concept, as it may not be confused with 'Common Law', which is a different concept.

 

[AChangeInTempo]

Will there be multiple stages for passing a law like in Vic 3, where there’s a chance it moves into the next stage or gets stalled or pushed backwards?

 

[Rule Britannia]

We do that already Any more suggestions for parliament names?

Will some parliaments be bicameral, e.g. House of Commons and House of Lords for England?

 

[altaia]

The Early and High Medieval rulers were seen more as judges than as legislators, that's correct, although not always (e.g. Anglo-Saxon kings started developing their own set of legal acts already in the 10th century, before the Danish and Norman conquests). However, the Reception marks the milestone after when medieval rulers started acting and being regarded more actively as legislators. Let's put an example from the Siete Partidas, one of those 13th-century legal codes, ordered by Alfonso X of Castile c. 1256. In the First Partida (book), the first title, law 12, 'Who has the power to make laws', clearly estates: 'Emperor, or king can make laws over the peoples of his lordship, and no other has the power to make civil laws: except, if it would by their permission. And those made in a different way, don't have the name or the force of laws, and shouldn't have value at any time.' And, regarding the legal order of precedence, in 1348 King Alfonso XI established in the 'Ordenamiento de Alcalá' how it should be in the Crown of Castile: First, royal acts, as those granted in that Ordenamiento (Statute); then, the different written fueros (custumes) already in place, or granted by future kings; in third place, the Siete Partidas, where neither a disposition of an ordenamiento or fuero would be in place; and, finally, the king had final interpretation over any matter in case of doubt or silence among the precedent legal sources. That means that the ruler would have the first and last word in the act of legislation. And something important, regarding fueros: either if they were regional, local, or estate ones, they had to be granted by the king on a written disposition, or otherwise, they wouldn't be considered valid. This was only applied to Civil Law, of course, as Canon Law was different (and even with that, the Primera Partida is basically a civil-canon compendium, establishing the relationship between both types of laws).

As a final note, 'Civil Law' may still be better than 'Ius Commune' as a game concept, as it may not be confused with 'Common Law', which is a different concept.

Strong endorsement for not using the term 'Ius Commune' in a setting where 'Common Law' also exists.

 

[InvincibleToaster]

Is there any chance we will get a fleshed out and impactful global trade wind system? something a little more expansive and in-depth than in eu4? I think that would be a really fun mechanic to have to navigate. After all, the trade winds had a huge impact on global trade and exploration (hence the name, obviously).