Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

[Palando]

Vitriolic hate? You're the one who argues in bad faith non-stop and keeps repeating what I write. What is this childish behavior?
Why are you making this so personal? It's simply a matter of historical accuracy.

All your statements boil down to that whoever doesn't accept your view supports ahistorical content. "Fürth is ahistorical!" is all that I hear from you.

The starting set-up is based on 1337. You can't take the 18th century into account. That's, for example, why Manchester isn't on the map. Warsaw isn't on the map.
It doesn't make sense to add a village to a fragmented region in 1337 because it welcomed settlers in the 18th century after having been burned down in the Thirty Years War.

Yes, it starts in 1337, but even in 1337, Fürth was bigger than Cadolzburg and had a market. Neither of them were of great importance, so there is an argument for both. This is something you seemingly cannot accept. Fürth has to go and everyone who disagrees purports historical content.

How did it have no political influence when it was literally the seat of a ruler from an important family? Fürth was not an administrative center, it was the city itself that was administered. There was no significant land around it that it would have administered, like Cadolzburg did. And yes, it wasn't very populated land, but it was fairly contiguous land that is represented in the game on the map.

Cadolzburg as a city or settlement did not have importance and even less so after the Hohenzollern resided in Ansbach.
The Bishopric of Bamberg administered its territories surrounding Fürth from Fürth. This was the so called Dompropsteiamt Fürth which was subservient to the dean who was in turn subservient to the bishop.

I've shown you the map and you have not responded with any comment that makes sense. Most of the current Fürth location in the game was made up by the Cadolzburg 'province' of the Hohenzollern territory. That is just a fact.

I know that map as I've posted it myself. I know that areawise the Hohenzollern territory was maybe 4x as much as the Bamberger territory or the Nürnberger territory, but my point still stands that it's not only about area but also about population and output. This is the case of many free cities which didn't own much areawise but all the land around them were just some small villages with a farmstead and three cows.

You are out of your mind if you think anyone cares about the conflict over Fürth. The city was so unimportant that three neighboring rulers were basically fine with it coming under various influences.
To me, it's much more flavorful to have an actual castle from the time period that was the seat of the Margrave, rather than a village that only became important during industrialization, mostly after the end of the game.

Ok, call me crazy if you wish. Maybe I'm an ahistorical idiot who knows nothing and should rather shrub pots in the cook's tent.

So why do you think no one wanted to give up the rights? Just because it was so unimportant that everyone kind of forgot about it? But why did Nürnberg start intervening in it after 1400? Just because the patricians got bored?

Another bad faith argument. Obviously I didn't say that all points are true for Cadolzburg, just that they are all missing for Fürth, while Cadolzburg at least had political and territorial importance. 2>0

Again, the map shows the state in 1337 and what we've seen so far from the map threads is that a lot of cities that became important later in the game are not included in the maps. You just admitted that Fürth shouldn't be included in a 14th century map, so I guess you actually agree with me.

I didn't agree with you, as Fürth was already a market by 1337 and existed. It would've been different if Fürth was founded in 1387 or something. It's a matter of what period or periods you want to represent and the game's developers decided to end the game with the Napoleonic era. Cadolzburg had its heyday in the 14th century whereas it started for Fürth in the late 17th century.

Anyway, there is no point to dicuss anymore, as the devs will decide based on what they want to represent. Name calling it ahistorical if they don't decide your way sounds like kindergarten.

 

[Karpi_]

I'll have to agree with your German content designers, those areas need a bit of rework.

I went ahead and worked out an (actually two) alternative version to provide some input, and also visualised it to get a better sense of what that alternative map could look like. The names that are spelled out are the areas where something changed.

Spoiler

Regarding my reasoning:

• North Rhine-Westphalia is a very modern construct. The two provinces started to develop increasingly close economic ties during the 19th century, and the idea of those areas being united only came up after WWII under foreign (British) occupation, and for purely economic reasons.
  • A unified Rhineland (consisting of Nieder- and Mittelrhein) could also work in that regard, but I assume that the region is probably too dense for this.
• The "Mittelrhein" area could include the German-speaking areas of Luxembourg, while the French part would remain largely with Wallonie (except for Thionville, which would go to Lorraine, both for logistical reasons and because it is part of France today). That would nicely underline the cultural diversity found within the country.
  • Alternatively, Luxembourg could also be it's own area if there need to be more, but I figure that it would probably be too small...
• Since the "Oberrhein" area in the current version consists mostly of locations belonging to the "Kurrheinischer Reichskreis" (including the Electoral Palatinate), I just went ahead and combined in with the Pfalz, since those areas would mostly belong together politically anyways. Mainz and Worms could also be added to it potentially.
  • But you could also just leave the current "Oberrhein" be, and add another independent, small but dense "Pfalz" area, if you wanna leave the Rhine as a boundary. This might even be the better option...

• Since Schwaben was split into two anyways, I changed the split a little to reflect cultural lines better, and changed it to "Schwaben" and "Baden".
  While "Baden" was, in some capacity, used contemporarily for the area (some of the counties in the area carried it in their name, and where controlled by the house of Baden)
  • Another possible name for it would be "Alemannien" (which was, however, also used synonymously with all of "Swabia" for a long time, but it would still get the idea across and be a bit more neutral).

• The "Innviertel" of Oberösterreich used to be part of Bavaria until the late 1700s, and only then changed hands.
  Given that it consequently was part of Bavaria for the majority of the game, and that there isn't really a cultural or geographic reason for it to belong to Austria, it would make more sense for it to belong to the Niederbayern area.

• The borders of Sachsen, Thüringen and Brandenburg should be a bit different.
• Sachsen (which should probably rather be called "Obersachsen") used to be much bigger (at it's largest extend, it even included Belzig), with a lot of the areas that used to belong to it directly or where part of independent and semi-independent states being part of the Brandenburg-area in the current map (Wittenberg being in the Brandenburg area strikes me as especially weird, given the role that the city and it's connection to the Elector of Saxony played in the Reformation). These areas only came under the influence of Brandenburg after being annexed during the 18th and 19th century, though, and many of them even then remained their own thing as the "Province of Saxony" within the Kingdom of Prussia, much of which became modern-day Sachsen-Anhalt. I roughly oriented myself on said Prussian Province when drawing the new borders.
• However, there are also areas in the Sachsen area that historically should be part of other areas.
  • Görlitz belonged to Silesia until WW2, only being transferred to Saxony as part of the new Oder-Neiße-border.
  • Altenburg could be assigned to the Thüringen area, as it used to be one of the independent small "Thuringian states", and also is part of Thuringia today
• I'm not a fan of your Sachsen-Anhalt area, if I'm being honest, since it again feels a little artificial. However, if you keep that one around, at least include the location of Zerbst in it, since it historically belonged to Anhalt.

• Regarding Northern Germany, there are multiple ways of handling it.
• First off, Mecklenburg simply isn't part of Pommern.
• Schleswig-Holstein could act as one large area (with the Danish King trying to gain / increase his control over it), or it could be two different areas ("Schleswig" and "Holstein"). Either way, Hamburg may or may not be part of it (it technically was a vassal of the Danish crown at some point iirc, but it really is more culturally tied to Lower Saxony).
• The area that is currently labeled "Niedersachsen" (and some parts of the surrounding areas), could simply be split in two along the river Weser, creating two new large areas, "Westfalen" and "Ostfalen".
  • If these areas are two big, parts of them could be split off as a costal "Niedersachsen" area.
    • As Mecklenburg and Holstein used to be part of the "Niedersächsischer Reichskreis" and used to have deep ties with the Hanseatic trade, they could also be part of that area.
      • Given it's Hanseatic history, Hamburg should probably be included in it either way.
    • Besides the areas I have shown on my map, the Oldenburg Province, as well as Celle and everything North of that could also be added.
  • If Westfalen extends too far south, the region around Olpe could be given to (or split between) Niederrhein and Hessen.

• Finally, I think that it might be more interesting to split of Slovenia into different areas, since that also used to be the case historically (and to some degree to this day). The concept of a unified geographic location called "Slovenia" is relatively new, after all, and wasn't really used before the 19th century.
• Instead, it would make sense to simply give Maribor and Celje to Styria, since they are part of that region.
  • If that works better, you could also think about making a mostly German "Obersteiermark" and a mostly Slovene "Lower Styria", though the Slovene area would probably need a few more locations than just Celje and Maribor for that to work...
• Tolmin and Gorizia could be given to the Istria (or in that case, it may be bette to rename it "Litorale") area. Or they could be given to "Veneto and Friuli".
  • In that case, you could maybe even go ahead split "Veneto and Friuli" into, well... "Veneto" and "Friuli".
    • If you go for that option, it may be a good idea to also add Trieste to it, to have a larger city included in the area. But it could also remain with Istria, I can see arguments for both approaches.
• What remains of "Slovenia" forms the "Carniola" area.

These ideas are, of course, all from a purely cultural / geographic angle, since I obviously can't really consider gameplay balancing for a game that isn't out yet. So there may or may not be very good reasons for the map to be as it currently is.

But still, I hope I could provide you some useful feedback. What you have shown of the game up to know looks great, and maybe you'll find something worth considering among my insane ramblings.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

are the Gryf dynasty characters german pomeranian?

 

[Mef]

All your statements boil down to that whoever doesn't accept your view supports ahistorical content. "Fürth is ahistorical!" is all that I hear from you.

Well, that is my argument, so yes?

Yes, it starts in 1337, but even in 1337, Fürth was bigger than Cadolzburg and had a market. Neither of them were of great importance, so there is an argument for both. This is something you seemingly cannot accept. Fürth has to go and everyone who disagrees purports historical content.

Your entire argument for naming the location Fürth seems to be that Fürth was the biggest settlement in the area. But that should not be the only criterium, and considering that it didn't have much population in absolute terms, it's not a good argument by itself for including it in the game.

Cadolzburg as a city or settlement did not have importance and even less so after the Hohenzollern resided in Ansbach.

Well I'm not suggesting Cadolzburg as a city (this is not a town location, but an urban location), I'm suggesting Cadolzburg as the castle that administered the rural Cadolzburg 'province' which matches pretty well with the in-game location. There are castle buildings in the game, so that fits as well.

The Bishopric of Bamberg administered its territories surrounding Fürth from Fürth. This was the so called Dompropsteiamt Fürth which was subservient to the dean who was in turn subservient to the bishop.

Like I said, there was basically no "territories surrounding Fürth". We're talking about empty floodplains around the Pegnitz and Rednitz rivers. It was barely more than the city itself, your map shows that.

I know that map as I've posted it myself. I know that areawise the Hohenzollern territory was maybe 4x as much as the Bamberger territory or the Nürnberger territory, but my point still stands that it's not only about area but also about population and output. This is the case of many free cities which didn't own much areawise but all the land around them were just some small villages with a farmstead and three cows.

How many times do I have to repeat my argument? Fürth was not a free city, it did not have a large population, so you can't treat it like a free city.
Obviously, if you want to represent a politically important city, you can expand its borders to make it work as a location. But this is not the case for Fürth here.
The location represents actual rural territory that was mostly owned by the Hohenzollern, while the city of Fürth was a Bamberg exclave.

So why do you think no one wanted to give up the rights? Just because it was so unimportant that everyone kind of forgot about it? But why did Nürnberg start intervening in it after 1400? Just because the patricians got bored?

Why would you give up on rights that can make you money? Every ruler wants to have loyal subjects that they can extract taxes from. In 1481, Bamberg tried to collect the Turk Tax from citizens of Fürth for the first time, but they wrote to Albrecht of Hohenzollern who protested on their behalf. Fürth wasn't important enough to fight a war over or anything like that, the most that Ansbach and Bamberg did were legal battles in court.

I didn't agree with you, as Fürth was already a market by 1337 and existed. It would've been different if Fürth was founded in 1387 or something. It's a matter of what period or periods you want to represent and the game's developers decided to end the game with the Napoleonic era. Cadolzburg had its heyday in the 14th century whereas it started for Fürth in the late 17th century.

Sounds like you've ended up arguing that a town deserves to be in the game because it had a market and existed in 1337?

Like I said before, had Fürth not been on this map, there would not have been a single person in this thread arguing for its inclusion. But for some reason you are hell-bent on defending it, even though there is an obvious alternative name for the location that matches both historical administrative division, and adds cool flavor to the game. Medieval castles that barely anyone knows about today are much more interesting than cities that only rose to prominence during industrialization.

 

[Pbhuh]

I'll have to agree with your German content designers, those areas need a bit of rework.

I went ahead and worked out an (actually two) alternative version to provide some input, and also visualised it to get a better sense of what that alternative map could look like. The names that are spelled out are the areas where something changed.

Spoiler

View attachment 1168820View attachment 1168809

The borders of Sachsen, Thüringen and Brandenburg should be a bit different.

• Sachsen (which should probably rather be called "Obersachsen") used to be much bigger (at it's largest extend, it even included Belzig), with a lot of the areas that used to belong to it directly or where part of independent and semi-independent states being part of the Brandenburg-area in the current map (Wittenberg being in the Brandenburg area strikes me as especially weird, given the role that the city and it's connection to the Elector of Saxony played in the Reformation). These areas only came under the influence of Brandenburg after being annexed during the 18th and 19th century, though, and many of them even then remained their own thing as the "Province of Saxony" within the Kingdom of Prussia, much of which became modern-day Sachsen-Anhalt. I roughly oriented myself on said Prussian Province when drawing the new borders.
• However, there are also areas in the Sachsen area that historically should be part of other areas.
  • Görlitz belonged to Silesia until WW2, only being transferred to Saxony as part of the new Oder-Neiße-border.
  • Altenburg could be assigned to the Thüringen area, as it used to be one of the independent small "Thuringian states", and also is part of Thuringia today
• I'm not a fan of your Sachsen-Anhalt area, if I'm being honest, since it again feels a little artificial. However, if you keep that one around, at least include the location of Zerbst in it, since it historically belonged to Anhalt.

• Regarding Northern Germany, there are multiple ways of handling it.
• First off, Mecklenburg simply isn't part of Pommern.
• Schleswig-Holstein could act as one large area (with the Danish King trying to gain / increase his control over it), or it could be two different areas ("Schleswig" and "Holstein"). Either way, Hamburg may or may not be part of it (it technically was a vassal of the Danish crown at some point iirc, but it really is more culturally tied to Lower Saxony).
• The area that is currently labeled "Niedersachsen" (and some parts of the surrounding areas), could simply be split in two along the river Weser, creating two new large areas, "Westfalen" and "Ostfalen".
  • If these areas are two big, parts of them could be split off as a costal "Niedersachsen" area.
    • As Mecklenburg and Holstein used to be part of the "Niedersächsischer Reichskreis" and used to have deep ties with the Hanseatic trade, they could also be part of that area.
      • Given it's Hanseatic history, Hamburg should probably be included in it either way.
    • Besides the areas I have shown on my map, the Oldenburg Province, as well as Celle and everything North of that could also be added.
  • If Westfalen extends too far south, the region around Olpe could be given to (or split between) Niederrhein and Hessen.

These ideas are, of course, all from a purely cultural / geographic angle, since I obviously can't really consider gameplay balancing for a game that isn't out yet. So there may or may not be very good reasons for the map to be as it currently is.

But still, I hope I could provide you some useful feedback. What you have shown of the game up to know looks great, and maybe you'll find something worth considering among my insane ramblings.

I'd definitely keep Holstein and Schleswig seperate as one was in the HRE and one was kinda out of it.

I also think lausitz/lusatia could make for a good way to split up Brandenburg being so huge.

 

[CrusaderKingsFan]

The Topograpy in Bavaria is a mess...
Its way too flat for me as a Bavarian to not complain!
There need to be more Hills (for forts of course )
And also some more Mountains in Baden and on the Chech border.
I also dont want to attach millions of reference Pictures showing that its definately not Flat where i live so maybe look up some pictures of franconia and upper bavaria and you´ll see what i mean.

Another Thing depending Culture...
I dont know how it was back then, but Austrian should be different to Bavarian and naming Tyrolian South Bavarian seems like an Insult.
At least i know that if you put a Man from Tyrol and an Upper Bavarian Person in the Same Room they dont understand Shit because the Accents are so extremely different.
I think if it wont get changed it would at least be nice that Austrian detatches from Bavarian after 100-200 Years.

Anyway Great Map
View attachment 1168192View attachment 1168194

The accents of a person from Tyrol and a person from Upper Bavaria are certainly very different (although they can understand each other easily , I don't agree with you there) and were already very different back then. However, it doesn't really matter if they saw themselves as Bavarian or not because they are all part of the Bavarian (or Austro-Bavarian) language group and cultures in Project Caesar seem to be primarily based on language, which is a good decision in my opinion by the way because otherwise it is really hard to figure out historical cultural differences. You could be more granular of course and split Southern Bavarian into Tyrolese and Carinthian, but I think in terms of gameplay making such granular splits doesn't add anything.

 

[Mef]

PLEASE READ THIS
Sorry for not posting this on the Balkan map but I wanted it to be seen.

If you don't post it in the relevant thread, then it won't be seen by the devs who are working on that region. Posting it here makes no sense.

 

[ArcticKnight]

Then Carniola, Styria and Carinthia would be international organizations? And when only one actor remained within the territory, they would be terminated or become one of them as tag.

could be, I mean, historically speaking, it would make sense to have them seperate tags untill like maria theresia

 

[Andreas der Löwe]

I'd definitely keep Holstein and Schleswig seperate as one was in the HRE and one was kinda out of it.

I also think lausitz/lusatia could make for a good way to split up Brandenburg being so huge.View attachment 1168858

Görlitz and Hoyerswerda also became a part of Silesia only after the Congress of Vienna and therefore it does not make sense for them to be part of Silesia. The same applies also to the brandenburgian part of Lusatia which also became only after the Congress of Vienna a part of Brandenburg. Therefore they should either be part of a Lusatia area or a Saxony area.

 

[Palando]

I'll have to agree with your German content designers, those areas need a bit of rework.

I went ahead and worked out an (actually two) alternative version to provide some input, and also visualised it to get a better sense of what that alternative map could look like. The names that are spelled out are the areas where something changed.

Spoiler

View attachment 1168820View attachment 1168809

Regarding my reasoning:

• North Rhine-Westphalia is a very modern construct. The two provinces started to develop increasingly close economic ties during the 19th century, and the idea of those areas being united only came up after WWII under foreign (British) occupation, and for purely economic reasons.
  • A unified Rhineland (consisting of Nieder- and Mittelrhein) could also work in that regard, but I assume that the region is probably too dense for this.
• The "Mittelrhein" area could include the German-speaking areas of Luxembourg, while the French part would remain largely with Wallonie (except for Thionville, which would go to Lorraine, both for logistical reasons and because it is part of France today). That would nicely underline the cultural diversity found within the country.
  • Alternatively, Luxembourg could also be it's own area if there need to be more, but I figure that it would probably be too small...
• Since the "Oberrhein" area in the current version consists mostly of locations belonging to the "Kurrheinischer Reichskreis" (including the Electoral Palatinate), I just went ahead and combined in with the Pfalz, since those areas would mostly belong together politically anyways. Mainz and Worms could also be added to it potentially.
  • But you could also just leave the current "Oberrhein" be, and add another independent, small but dense "Pfalz" area, if you wanna leave the Rhine as a boundary. This might even be the better option...

• Since Schwaben was split into two anyways, I changed the split a little to reflect cultural lines better, and changed it to "Schwaben" and "Baden".
  While "Baden" was, in some capacity, used contemporarily for the area (some of the counties in the area carried it in their name, and where controlled by the house of Baden)
  • Another possible name for it would be "Alemannien" (which was, however, also used synonymously with all of "Swabia" for a long time, but it would still get the idea across and be a bit more neutral).

• The "Innviertel" of Oberösterreich used to be part of Bavaria until the late 1700s, and only then changed hands.
  Given that it consequently was part of Bavaria for the majority of the game, and that there isn't really a cultural or geographic reason for it to belong to Austria, it would make more sense for it to belong to the Niederbayern area.

• The borders of Sachsen, Thüringen and Brandenburg should be a bit different.
• Sachsen (which should probably rather be called "Obersachsen") used to be much bigger (at it's largest extend, it even included Belzig), with a lot of the areas that used to belong to it directly or where part of independent and semi-independent states being part of the Brandenburg-area in the current map (Wittenberg being in the Brandenburg area strikes me as especially weird, given the role that the city and it's connection to the Elector of Saxony played in the Reformation). These areas only came under the influence of Brandenburg after being annexed during the 18th and 19th century, though, and many of them even then remained their own thing as the "Province of Saxony" within the Kingdom of Prussia, much of which became modern-day Sachsen-Anhalt. I roughly oriented myself on said Prussian Province when drawing the new borders.
• However, there are also areas in the Sachsen area that historically should be part of other areas.
  • Görlitz belonged to Silesia until WW2, only being transferred to Saxony as part of the new Oder-Neiße-border.
  • Altenburg could be assigned to the Thüringen area, as it used to be one of the independent small "Thuringian states", and also is part of Thuringia today
• I'm not a fan of your Sachsen-Anhalt area, if I'm being honest, since it again feels a little artificial. However, if you keep that one around, at least include the location of Zerbst in it, since it historically belonged to Anhalt.

• Regarding Northern Germany, there are multiple ways of handling it.
• First off, Mecklenburg simply isn't part of Pommern.
• Schleswig-Holstein could act as one large area (with the Danish King trying to gain / increase his control over it), or it could be two different areas ("Schleswig" and "Holstein"). Either way, Hamburg may or may not be part of it (it technically was a vassal of the Danish crown at some point iirc, but it really is more culturally tied to Lower Saxony).
• The area that is currently labeled "Niedersachsen" (and some parts of the surrounding areas), could simply be split in two along the river Weser, creating two new large areas, "Westfalen" and "Ostfalen".
  • If these areas are two big, parts of them could be split off as a costal "Niedersachsen" area.
    • As Mecklenburg and Holstein used to be part of the "Niedersächsischer Reichskreis" and used to have deep ties with the Hanseatic trade, they could also be part of that area.
      • Given it's Hanseatic history, Hamburg should probably be included in it either way.
    • Besides the areas I have shown on my map, the Oldenburg Province, as well as Celle and everything North of that could also be added.
  • If Westfalen extends too far south, the region around Olpe could be given to (or split between) Niederrhein and Hessen.

• Finally, I think that it might be more interesting to split of Slovenia into different areas, since that also used to be the case historically (and to some degree to this day). The concept of a unified geographic location called "Slovenia" is relatively new, after all, and wasn't really used before the 19th century.
• Instead, it would make sense to simply give Maribor and Celje to Styria, since they are part of that region.
  • If that works better, you could also think about making a mostly German "Obersteiermark" and a mostly Slovene "Lower Styria", though the Slovene area would probably need a few more locations than just Celje and Maribor for that to work...
• Tolmin and Gorizia could be given to the Istria (or in that case, it may be bette to rename it "Litorale") area. Or they could be given to "Veneto and Friuli".
  • In that case, you could maybe even go ahead split "Veneto and Friuli" into, well... "Veneto" and "Friuli".
    • If you go for that option, it may be a good idea to also add Trieste to it, to have a larger city included in the area. But it could also remain with Istria, I can see arguments for both approaches.
• What remains of "Slovenia" forms the "Carniola" area.

These ideas are, of course, all from a purely cultural / geographic angle, since I obviously can't really consider gameplay balancing for a game that isn't out yet. So there may or may not be very good reasons for the map to be as it currently is.

But still, I hope I could provide you some useful feedback. What you have shown of the game up to know looks great, and maybe you'll find something worth considering among my insane ramblings.

The distinction between "Baden" and "Württemberg" only came up during the Napoleonic era, as before that all of it was called Swabia. Constance was even the head of the Circle of Swabia (together with Württemberg). In 1337, Baden and Württemberg were both just minor territories and the latter was not even a duchy.

Oberschwaben and Niederschwaben were actually names used or stick with the geographical terms "Eastern and Western Swabia".

 

[Pbhuh]

The distinction between "Baden" and "Württemberg" only came up during the Napoleonic era, as before that all of it was called Swabia. Constance was even the head of the Circle of Swabia (together with Württemberg). In 1337, Baden and Württemberg were both just minor territories and the latter was not even a duchy.

Oberschwaben and Niederschwaben were actually names used or stick with the geographical terms "Eastern and Western Swabia".

Baden wasn't part of swabia im pretty certain. Baden had more in common with alsace

 

[Palando]

Baden wasn't part of swabia im pretty certain. Baden had more in common with alsace

No, it was part of Swabia.

It was part of the Circle of Swabia:

And it belonged to the historical Duchy of Swabia:

 

[Mef]

Baden wasn't part of swabia im pretty certain. Baden had more in common with alsace

What is Baden today was split between the Swabian Circle, the Upper Rhine Circle and the Austrian Circle. So while it wasn't necessarily all considered Swabian, a separate Baden identity only appeared together with the territorial changes in the 19th century.
I think it makes sense to include Baden either in an Upper Rhine area or Swabia area (which would already be pretty big).

 

[schmidticus]

The maps look amazing as always and seeing this many different countries and granularity is just incredible (Looking forward to a fun start with only 2377 people in Neuchatel)

A few bits of feedback here:
- Could the area Styria be renamed to Lower Styria (Untersteiermark in German) (as Styria is just the English for Steiermark which was centered on Graz for most of its history)
- Mühlviadl to get changed to Mühlviertel (to keep consistent with standard German orthography rather than using Austro-Bavarian dialecticians)
- Unter dem Wienerwald should be Ober dem Wienerwald (this is what's today known as the Mostviertel) and maybe the region of Vienna to Unter dem Wienerwald instead (today's Industrieviertel)
- I know the point was raised about English Vs German names but rather than having Oberösterreich and Niederosterreich (Upper and Lower Austria) I think having Österreich ob Der Enns and Österreich unter der Enns would be more historically correct as OÖ and NÖ were only used officially post WW1
- Also just to weigh in on the culture thing could Danube Bavarian be renamed to Austro-Bavarian and South Bavarian to Tyrolean (unless Austrian is supposed to be split during the game that is)

 

[BeaverNation57]

I saw the Baltic Prussian culture and had this idea:
Event idea: A Baltic Prussian arrives in Moscow, named Andrei Kobyla, and he, or a one of his sons/ grandsons, becomes a boyar. Then later on during the time of troubles, if it still exists, you can elect a local boyar and descendant of Andrei, named Micheal Romanov son of the Patriarch Feodor/ Filaret Romanov.

 

[Red Death]

I think it's a debatable abstraction of how federal/confederal work. For instance, the Stadtholder of the Dutch Republic had power and jurisdiction over the provinces on certain issues, and that actually evolved into the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Landless IOs fit much better for non-territorialized authorities... Such as the HRE.

Would be a fun way of stimulating a transition of integration over time between equals though: completely independent countries --> IO without a leader --> landless country is created and made permanent leader of IO --> gradual increase of power of IO leader country --> eventual merging into one country.

 

[ArVass]

The locations of Strelitz, Templin and Angermünde should probably be wetlands, because of this and this wetland naturalpark.

There is probably also a case to be made for some coastal parts of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and Stettin to be made marshes too

 

[Failtier]

So having taken some time to review the entire post in more details. One of the current things that bothers me and I guess the developers struggled with this too is the amount of cultures and confusing nature of them in Northern Germany and specifically the Low German/Low Saxon varieties.

I've taken my time to prepare another map to illustrate some of the points I am trying to make:
View attachment 1168785
Lower Saxon on the map is confusing. It primary seems to represent North Low Saxon varieties, yet it is listed as the entirety of Low Saxon. This is somewhat of an issue given that all dialects in the old Kingdom of Saxony were Low Saxon Dialects.

In Schleswig there should probably be more danish. It should either be a mixture of Danish and Holsatian or even further north it should be fully german, like in Flensburg.

Meanwhile in the west Frisian is primarily influenced and eventually replaced by North Low Saxon varieties under the influence of Oldenburg, Groningen (Technically Westphalian town) and the Hanseatic League, this is seen today in dialect of Gronings/Oostfries being very similar to Oldenburgish and not to varieties in the Netherlands in the East such as Drents, Stellingwerfs, Twents or Veluws

Early Modern Dialects were placed in the fashion shown below:
View attachment 1168788
View attachment 1168791

Now this isn't a fully accurate representation of the time, but wouldn't be far off from at least creating some distinctions.

I've taken the personal liberty to describe North Low Saxon as the Hanseatic Main Tongue, while this is somewhat disputed that such a tongue existed. It may help to pick this name to avoid north south east names for dialects and given that this variety is primarily spoken by most of the hanseatic towns which later become important (Bremen, Hamburg) I think it is an option.

Meanwhile it is somewhat odd to see the name Brandenburgish and Märkish as both refer to the same thing. Märkish comes from the Margriavate of Brandenburg, so one name should be chosen or new names should be chosen altogether if there was a specific reason to seperate the two. But I could not figure this one out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marchian

Now Angrian is a dialect I did not see much evidence for or at least in this time period it seems to have been subsumed by nearby dialects.
View attachment 1168793
This shows a part of the Duchy of Angria.

While Holsatian can be a nice modern continuation of Nordalbingia region of the Kingdom of Saxony, I think that North Low Saxon should be the modern replacement of any angrian dialects. At least for this period.
View attachment 1168794

Apart from all the dialect things I would also like to focus a bit on North Germany in general:
View attachment 1168813

The Frisian Sealands are still somewhat of a factor in this time. Jever should at all cost shrink a little to allow for much better future borders and allow for Wilhelmshaven's founding in later game.
The area roughly covered by Rüstringen gau was still disputed between independence and being part of Oldenburg and wouldn't become part of Oldenburg until later in 14th century. Varel could make a choice of a town. It was somewhat larger than Elsfleth, though I don't think it matters that much.
The lands of Hadeln and Würsten are very close together and would make for a decent location together with the current choice already made of Ritzebüttel. I would use Otterndorf for the earlier period where Hadeln was still an interesting region as it creates more gameplay opportunities. Later it can be acquired by Hamburg with Ritzebüttel or Cuxhaven as a name.

With regards to provinces I have done some more modern areas than shown. I'd personally add Ratzeburg to Lübeck. Mecklenburg should be split in 2 or 3 provinces. I went with 3, based on Wismar/Schwerin, Rostock and (Mecklenburg)-Strelitz. I would extend the Uckermark from Brandenburg to the mouth of the Ucker and shrink Stralsund to only contain areas associated with Pomerania. Meanwhile Neumark can be that unique shape we all know and love from Europa Universalis.
Altmark should only contain locations that were in the old Stemduchy of Saxony and not the Eastern March. Prignitz can subsume them with Ruppin, while Mittelmark is now in the actual middle of the Brandenburger March.
View attachment 1168821View attachment 1168818View attachment 1168816View attachment 1168822View attachment 1168830

Varel (stad) - Wikipedia

nl.wikipedia.org

Geschichte von Hadeln und Wursten – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

I agree with your redrawing of the Provinces of Mark Brandenburg. But one thing I have addressed in my post about Brandenburg: Markish and Brandenburgish are not synonymous. One refers to linguistic-historical characteristics (Markish) whereas the other one refers to geographical ones (Brandenburgish). The question I raised was therefore what is it supposed to represent? If it's linguistic affiliation (dialect group), then there is a difference between the Berlin / Southern Brandenburg dialect and Markish because Brandenburgish belongs to the Middle German dialects whereas Markish belongs to the Lower German dialects (source). The maps you posted show precisely that, Berlin and Southern Brandenburg are not included in the Lower German dialects.

 

[Semeokai]

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
View attachment 1167612
I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zelland, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
View attachment 1167613
The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
View attachment 1167615
We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
View attachment 1167616

Spoiler: Detailed Locations Maps

View attachment 1167617
View attachment 1167618
View attachment 1167619
View attachment 1167620

Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
View attachment 1167621
Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
View attachment 1167622
Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
View attachment 1167623
View attachment 1167624
View attachment 1167625
Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
View attachment 1167626
Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
View attachment 1167629
Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1167630
Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
View attachment 1167632
The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
View attachment 1167633

Spoiler: Detailed Population Maps

View attachment 1167634
View attachment 1167635
View attachment 1167636

The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!

Pls make Buxtehude a Location Close to Stade. Pls pls pls. You would Break my Heart if you dont do it

 

[Ollfardh]

Good to see Bruges there, as it should be. Although the naming of the markets seems inconsistent (English name vs. local name).

As I said before, it's great to see so much detail given to the maps. I hope you keep the feedback open until close to the game launch as I see people who are late to the party adding very useful stuff in stuff that has already been reviewed.