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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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The Reichskreis was based on the earlier duchy, which ranged from the Voges to the Lech.
I agree with you that this is its origin, but by that definition Alsace and Chur would be considered Swabia as well because that's how far the duchy extended. My point is just that the region at the oberrhein was never referred to as swabia geographically, but only in administrative contexts (duchy of swabia and reichskreis of swabia) and thus I think it is not fitting to name it any derivative of that. (At least I could not find any sources that show that it was referred to as swabia geographically, but I am totally open to being proven wrong).
Meaning that if regions would be based on reichskreise, sure name it rhenish or westswabia.
But if regions will be based of geographic locations, which is just a personal preference of mine, I think Oberrhein, Rheinebene or Black Forest would be more fitting, depending on how they are laid out.
 
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I disagree on the Koblenz location. Even on the map you attach to the post it is seen that it didn't possess so much territory on the other side of the river.

View attachment 1169094
Koblenz city territory should be added to location called Mayen, where the other side can be named for example Eherenbreitstein. It was the biggest city on that river side.
View attachment 1169095


Edit: Also I am a great supporter of the Rhine river borders. And Ketzenelnbogen bothers me. It is sad that it is a historic border of the county. But I wish we all can close our eyes for that one...
It's easier said than done because there's no bloody river visible.
 
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Is it not enough with the HRE and the Catholic Church, that you already want even more wonky institutions in Germany? :p

I don't think we have any more IOs for the first two ages, but then things may spice up when the Age of Reformation and certain Saxonian priest appear...
A smaller IO you could potentially add which would add flavour is:

1. Three City League of Thuringia

The Thuringian League of Three Cities was a medieval city league between the three most powerful cities in the Thuringia region. It was largely a defensive alliance against the princely Wettin family of Saxony with some joint economic interests.


Proposal:

Create a small defensive league International Organization called the 'Three City League of Thuringia' with the following members Mühlhausen, Nordhausen and Erfurt​
Make sure Mühlhausen, Nordhausen and Erfurt have positive relations with each other and negative relations with Meissen and the Archbishopric of Mainz who should have a core on Erfurt.
 
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As someone from the region: I suggest changing the raw material for Lüneburg to salt. The salt dome under the city is what the wealth of the city was founded on.
 
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Idk if it has already been talked about, but I find it a little strange that there is not a single metal ressource in the Harz mountains which had a long history of ore mining. For example one of the most important ressources for Goslar was the mines at Rammelsberg which had been a place for mining for over 1000 years (and is now a world heritage site). The mine was first direct possession of the emperor, but over time it's imperial significance waned. The mountains were home mainly copper, zinc and lead and also silver and even a small amount of gold. My fourth source claims it was among the most important mines in (medieval) Germany, but all sources who could potentially shed more info are behind a paywall (so I cannot recommend them unless I am certain there is the information in there until I checked them).
In short: I think it would make sense to give at least Goslar one of the metals for which mining it was known and siginificant, instead of wool.

Sources:
https://en.harzinfo.de/poi/rammelsberg-museum-and-visitor-mine,
https://opendata.uni-halle.de/bitstream/1981185920/95780/1/hercynia_volume_10_2154.pdf (A list of mining operations in the North-Eastern Harz, in German)
https://bilder.buecher.de/zusatz/20/20805/20805427_lese_1.pdf (Short history about mining in the Harz mountains, touches on the middle ages sadly only shortly on page 11, in German)
Bartels, C., Fessner, M., Klappauf, L., Linke, F., 2007. "Kupfer, Blei und Silber aus dem Goslarer Rammelsberg von den Anfängen bis 1620" Bochum: Deutsches Bergbau-Museum. (This should have all the important information, but it is not available online (at least not for free), but is available in some libraries.)

I will see if I can update this post once I am back from holidays as well and look stuff up in libraries.
 
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We consider it reviewed, but I'll take a look, nonetheless.
I don't want to be annoying, but I was also late in responding during the first tinto talks.

Would you please please please, consider adding a Waterland location to north holland and change the borders a bit?
it's based on the historical regions of north holland.

proposal locations V2.png

source map 1

source map 2
 
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4. Doberan
- the area surrounding Rostock and Doberan were cleared during the colonization of those lands. I think there should be at least a few areas with woods. Also I’m not sure if salt being produced in Doberan is accurate. Most accurate would be lumber I believe (because of the clearings. A lot of the town names in that region are references to lumber camps)
The area of the Hägerort (eastern half of the location) was heavily forested and not settled during slavic times, but the forests were cleared in the 13th century. The villages are named for the then already removed forest and are not lumber camps but agrarian. The western part of the location was and is still forested. Vegetation should probably indeed be woods.
Lumber or an agrarian good (sturdy grains, wheat, livestock) should fit as basic good.
Due to the settlement history, this location should probably also have a higher proportion of German vs. Polabian compared to oder rural parts of Mecklenburg.
1. Güstrow and Waren
- the correct names for this principality’s would be Werle-Güstrow and Werle-Waren
- I get that those names would be a little long, but Güstrow should be named properly (with ü) at least
- the location should be named Güstrow as well
- Parchim belonged to Mecklenburg and not to Werle-Güstrow
- to represent the southern parts of Werle-Güstrow the now location of Parchim could be cut in half. One half (Parchim) going to Mecklenburg and the other half (new location called: Plau am See) should go to Werle-Güstrow. It would be reasonable for lumber or fish to be produced in a location Plau am See.
Proposed part of this earlier myself. I'm not sure about the split of Parchim. The locations are getting quite small already. The current resulting borders are not too bad, and keeping the name Parchim represents that town at least. Parchimn itself was previously ruled by a cadet branch of Werle, and then split between Güstrow and Mecklenburg.
- I tried drawing my suggestion for new provinces: (1. beeing Parchim, 2. beeing Plau am See and 3. beeing Bützow
if Bützow is added, it needs to be bigger to reach the minimum size. Maybe attach more of the Wismar area (Sternberg) to it and expand the northern border a bit?
Potentially, this could become the bishopric of Schwerin as a new country.
- locations like Rostock, Güstrow and Neubrandenburg should be part of an eastern Mecklenburg Province. I don’t have a good name for it, since most names refer to smaller regions. Mecklenburgische Seenplatte would refer to parts of Parchim, Waren and parts of Malchin. Mecklenburgische Schweiz would refer to Güstrow and parts of Wismar and Malchin. Same goes for Mecklenburger Parkland. Mecklenburg-Strelitz would refer to Strelitz and Neubrandenburg. (I refer to the provinces on the map, the borders are different in real life)
- I will try to find out an accurate and fitting name for the provinces, since calling Güstrow a part of Stralsund just feels wrong
How about calling it Werle? Most of the locations included were once part of that principality after all.
2. Anclem
- the german name for this location would be Anklam
Historically Tanclam and Anclam were also used, but Anklam is already documented in 1283, so using the modern name is preferable indeed.
 
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Sorry for being late. Since there re so many zzz Franconian, is it possible to rename the Saxon culture to something like Upper Saxon?
 
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Feels wrong to me that there is 0 mountain locations IN Bohemia on its borders. Also no Farmlands in Bohemia? I dont know the games differentiation and definition for Grasslands vs Farmland, sorry. And Southern Bohemia on the other hand could get Písek to be Flatlands. I feel like the south with its many ponds nowadays is flat but maybe its just my feeling and the topography of the whole location is different. BUT it is not Hills like Krkonoše MOUNTAINS with its 1608m peak being a Hill by your games definition... :D
About the population of Bohemia and Moravia I have only read this nice document on the internet, quick summary: ESTIMATE and rounding of numbers of multiple historians is that at the start of the 15th century the population was around 2,5 million for Bohemia and Moravia. (That is 60 years after the start date of the game, and there was supposedly a big plague hit in 1380 in the Czech lands, 10-15% of population died) . So the numbers in game look on the low side to me but maybe someone can correct me or its better like this for overall balance, not up to me in the end. :)
 
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The city of Eutin is not in the Eutin province, maybe split the location and make an actual Eutin one while making the peninsula Wagrien or Oldenburg in Holstein. Would be more fitting in my opinion, as Oldenburg was just as relevant at the time too
 
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I agree with you that this is its origin, but by that definition Alsace and Chur would be considered Swabia as well because that's how far the duchy extended. My point is just that the region at the oberrhein was never referred to as swabia geographically, but only in administrative contexts (duchy of swabia and reichskreis of swabia) and thus I think it is not fitting to name it any derivative of that. (At least I could not find any sources that show that it was referred to as swabia geographically, but I am totally open to being proven wrong).
Meaning that if regions would be based on reichskreise, sure name it rhenish or westswabia.
But if regions will be based of geographic locations, which is just a personal preference of mine, I think Oberrhein, Rheinebene or Black Forest would be more fitting, depending on how they are laid out.
I agree on calling it Oberrhein, if you include Alsace.
 
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1722194902382.jpeg

Another one of my masterpieces. After working on this the whole day I want to kill myself. Obviously alot left to do, especially the Tier locations are far from done but the freely available information is sparse to say the least.

1: Mainz, Mainz
2: Bingen, Mainz
3: Wiesbaden, Nassau
4: Usingen/Weilburg, Nassau
5: Dillenburg, Nassau
6: Altenkirchen, Sayn
7: Wied, Wied
8: Diez, Diez
9: Katzenellenbogen, Katzenellenbogen
10: Montabaur, Trier
11: Koblenz, Trier
12: ???, Trier
13: Daun, Trier
14: Prüm, Trier (Vassal?)
15: Trier, Trier
16: ???, Trier
17: Veldenz, Veldenz
18: Birkenfeld?, Sponheim
19: Starkenburg?, Sponheim
20: Simmern, Trier
21: Kreuznach, Sponheim
22: Alzey, Palatinate
23: Kaiserslautern, Trier or Bohemia
24: Worms/Leiningen, City of Worms or Bishopric of Worms, Leiningen
25: Mannheim/Neustadt, Palatinate
26: Speyer, City or Bishopric of Speyer
 
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Dividing Austria and Bavaria into a "Danube-Bavarian" and "Southern Bavarian" is, quite frankly, an ill thought decision. Ignoring all the glaring issues that come from using linguistics as a basis to depict cultures (that alone could be an entire thesis on its own), its just wrong to say there that an "Austro-Bavarian" culture even existed to begin with. Austria, or, to be more accurate, the lands that today are known as Austria, were always distinctly unique from the rest of Bavaria (and the vast majority of Germany for that matter) on a cultural basis. That was mainly because of 3 very simple factors:

A) Geography. Bavaria proper was divided from Austria by relatively rough terrain, making communication outside of the waterways practically impossible to begin with (that's why Bavaria never actually "annexed" the eastern marches, they couldn't even if they wanted).

B) the contact and mixing between the Germanic settlers and other peoples. In particular the Slavs (Carantians, Slovenes, Czechs and soo on), Magyars and Latin peoples. In fact, if you pay attention to Austria today, you can still see how those groups influenced parts of the country (with places like Tyrol being more influenced by the Latins, Upper Austria by the Czechs and Styria by the South Slavs).

C) The Germanic settlers that came to Austria were not all Bavarian. This can be observe in particular in how the average Austrian genetic code is "all over the place", being directly influence not just by Bavarians but other (mostly southern) Germanic groups and even the Franks (one cannot forget that Austria was birthed by the Karling Empire first and foremost).

*its also important to note that Austria proper went through quite a nasty time period between it's creation under the Karlings, the Germanic immigration to the region and the rise of the Habsburgs (who brought much needed stability to the region, somewhat). The region was first and foremost a frontier like area. Even during this time period, raids by Cumans were somewhat of an occurrence (albeit in far lesser degree than in the previous centuries). Nevertheless this climate of instability did not foster what you can call an "ideal environment for a complete demographic shift" to Bavarianism. As mentioned in point B, the reality of the matter was that the Germanic settlers and the local people developed a relationship of interdependence as a matter of survival. That fact alone shows us that, even if we assume that the lands that today are called Austria were Bavarian during its early days, such case quickly changed due to the unstable nature of the region during this time period, de facto paving the way for a very much distinct culture to emerge as a result

Even if we try to go through the linguistic argument, one can hardly point that Austro-Bavarian was prevalent among the modern day Austrian areas. Historical records are lacking in regards to the local folk (in fact, there's soo few things to go on with that most historical work about this subject was done a posteriori). As some people have mentioned in this thread previously, even official documents flip flop constantly in the way they name locations like Graz, which only indicates that the idea of a "homogenous" (or at least majority) cultural matrix directly related to Bavaria proper did not exist in the region.
Even if we accept the idea that an "Austrian culture" did not exist, its not debatable that what is modern day Austria did culture that can be objectively characterized as "being the same" as any other German culture of the time.

You are better off at splitting Bavarian from Austrian, and as someone else mentioned, you are far better at removing the whole "Danube-Bavarian" nonsense and adding a Tyrolean, Styrio-Carinthian (or something like that) and Austrian culture separated from Bavarians
 
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