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Tinto Maps #19 - 20th of September 2024 - India

Hello everyone, and welcome once again to another Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at India! Yup, a whole subcontinent… Exciting!

Let me say a foreword before I start sharing with you some beautiful maps. Some of you may wonder why we decided to make the entire Indian subcontinent in just one DD, instead of spreading it a bit. There are two reasons for that. The first is the political situation: the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq. You will soon see that it rules over more than half of the region, approximately; so splitting that polity into several DDs would have felt weird.

The other is that we felt that a more cohesive approach made sense in this region, as it’s sooo diverse compared to others, that the way we approached it, both for its setup and content, was from the generic to the particular; therefore, we think that it will also help us more when we tackle the review of the region. Speaking of that, don’t worry much about the time available to prepare suggestions; you may already know that we have a backlog of several regions, and therefore weeks, before we hit the Indian review, so you will have plenty of time to research and prepare them. In any case, as it’s a massive task (we know it firsthand), we’ll let you know a bit in advance when we plan to start the in-depth review of it, so you have time to wrap it up.

As a final say, I just want to mention that an old acquaintance of the community, @Trin Tragula , now Design Lead in CK3, helped us to map a big chunk of it. Thanks, mate! And now, maps!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

Colored Wastelands.png

As I just mentioned, the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq, extending through the Indo-Gangetic Plain, including Bengal, and to the south, throughout the Deccan. There we have its toughest contender, Vijayanagar, a county that is a bulwark of Hinduism. Other important countries around it are Orissa and Sindh, but much smaller countries generally surround Delhi. You might wonder how it would be possible to stop Delhi from completely controlling the region, then. For this, two things are affecting its capability to achieve it. The first is the base game mechanics: ruling over so many different cultures and religions with low control will be hard. The second is a Situation that involves the Fall of the Sultanate; if Delhi wants to succeed, it will have to fight back against rebellions, which involves the potential independence of the Bengalese countries or newborn ones such as the Bahmanis, and the multiple Indian states around it, which are ready to take over it.

Dynasties:
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Locations:
Locations.jpg

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Yes, we are making some adjustments to the coloring of the mapmodes!

Provinces:
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Areas:
Areas.jpg

The bug is still there, yes… The area that is to the southwest is Malabar.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Here we have a new type of topography: Atolls. We added it some months ago, as we worked on finishing the map of the Pacific Ocean, and it will be the last one added to the game.

Development:
Development.jpg

A new map mode is born! Here you have the development of India. The most developed place is Delhi, which is part of the fertile Gangetic Plain.

Harbors:
Harbors.jpg


Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

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Not an entirely new map, but a glorious one. We chose it to be the one to present how the different cultures could be present in the game for a reason.

Religions:
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India is the birthplace of numerous religions, and that needs to be reflected in the religious map. The main religion is Hinduism, but don’t be deceived by its homogeneous look, as it will be quite deep feature-wise. We also have Buddhism, which is at a low point, after some centuries of prosecutions. Mahayana is a majority in Sindh, although that's not completely exact, as an earlier form of Buddhism was practiced there; we’re also not 100% convinced about it being a majority, as some sources and accounts set the Islamization of the region to be completed under the Ghaznavids, in the 11th and 12th century, while others delay it until the 14th century - we followed the later approach, but we're very open to feedback in this specific matter. Another form of Buddhism is Theravada, which is the most practiced religion in Sailan. Some interesting minorities present in the region are Jains (yellow stripes), Nestorians (the pink stripe in Malabar, which portrays the ‘Saint Thomas Christians’), Jews (which have their own separate culture, ‘Kochini’), and several Animist confessions, of which we’ve already split Satsana Phi, the traditional religion of Tai people, and Sanamahism, the religion of Meitei people. Oh, although it’s not strictly part of the region, the light blue stripes to the north is Bön religion.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

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Raw Materials 4.jpg
India was for some time in the period the wealthiest region of the world, one of the main reasons being that it’s incredibly rich in very different types of resources, including some of the expensive ones. That will make for a very interesting economic gameplay.

Markets:
Markets India.png

There are several market centers in India that we think portray well the situation in 1337: Kabul (yes, it’s in Afghanistan, but it’s one for the area of Kashmir), Delhi, Khambat, Calicut, Pulicat, Varanasi, and Chittagong.

Population:
Population.jpg

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India has a big population. To be precise, around 95M pops. Delhi is the second largest country in the world in population, with 41M pops, which makes it a behemoth, with very serious governance challenges. I’m also showing this week the progress we’re making with the coloring of the population mapmode; the stripes on several locations mark that they’re overpopulated, as they have more pops living on them than the pop capacity available (something that may be reviewed, as balancing very densely populated regions such as India or China is really challenging).

And that’s all for today! We hope you enjoyed this massive Tinto Maps. Next week we will be taking a look at the Steppe. Which one, you might wonder? Well, the one ruled by the Golden Horde, from Ukraine in the west to Mongolia in the east. Cheers!
 
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Yeah the second map looks way better than the first imo. There are so many darkened outlines that it's really cluttered and hard to read.

I will say that the only map modes that REALLY need to be changed are development and market access (basically any map mode where you are displaying a continuous spectrum of values) because those are literally unusable.
Yeah. For the other mapmodes the new style is... well... I think it looks far worse, instantly reminds me of CK3. I strongly prefer a cleaner look, especially on the province map, but it is a preference thing on most maps.

Like you said, however, it makes the dev and market access maps significantly harder to read. I can't even see what *actual* color some individual provinces have. Instead of being clean, clear spectrums they become muddy, dark, cluttered assortments of blobs.
 

Cultures in the Himalayas​

Sikkimese Culture​

It is more accurate to refer to the culture of Sikkim as Lepcha culture, as there was no unified Sikkimese identity. The Lepcha and Limbu peoples are the indigenous groups of Sikkim, while the Bhutias began migrating from Tibet around the same time. Since Limbu is already mentioned, replacing "Sikkimese" with "Lepcha" is recommended. Additionally, consider including Bhutia influences in northern Limbuwan and Sikkim.

Khasa Culture​

Khasa Prakrit, also known as Khas Prakrit or Himalayan Prakrit, is a medieval South Asian language that serves as a common ancestor to the Pahari languages, including Nepali, Kumaoni, Jaunsari, Mandeali, Kangri, and Garhwali. The Khasas extensively populated the mountainous regions of Uttarakhand and dominated the inner Himalayan belt up to Nepal.

Historically, the Khasas established themselves from Afghanistan to Nepal, managing village-level theocratic republics known as Gram-Rajya and Mandals under various local clans. The ruling Katyuri dynasty of Kumaon, believed to have Khas origins, was a significant power in the region from 700 to 1200 CE. According to historical records, the Katyuri dynasty claimed sovereignty over various Gram Rajyas and initially ruled from Joshimath in the Alaknanda Valley before shifting its capital to Baijnath. The Katyuris were connected to the medieval Khasa Malla kingdom, which had a strong presence in western Nepal and Uttarakhand.

The Khasa kings formed the Khasa-Malla Kingdom, which ruled over western Nepal and parts of Uttarakhand from the 11th century until it fragmented into local chiefdoms in the late 14th century.

Historian E.T. Atkinson noted in the 1886 Kumaon gazetteer that there were approximately 250 'septs among Khasiya Brahmins' and 280 'septs among Khasiya Rajputs,' representing the Khasa tribe. He estimated that 90% of the Brahmins in Kumaon belong to the Khas tribe. The Khasiya Brahmins were primarily cultivators and agriculturalists, worshiping deities such as Bhairava, Shiva, and Vishnu, with many deriving their surnames from their villages of origin.

The Khas people of the Western Himalayas share similarities with those in Garhwal, Kumaon, and Nepal, often referred to as Rajputs or Kanets in Himachal Pradesh. The Khasiyas of Jaunsar-Bawar, represented by the Jaunsari Rajputs and Brahmins, practiced polyandrous marriages.

Overall, the significant presence of Khas people in Kumaon and Garhwal justifies recognizing the cultures in these regions as Khasa rather than solely Kumaoni or Garhwali. Nepali, Garhwali, and Kumaoni are more modern cultural identities that stem from the older Khas culture. This perspective acknowledges the historical and cultural continuity of the Khasa identity in the Himalayan landscape.

Kirati Culture​

The Kirati are indigenous to the eastern part of Nepal, roughly corresponding to the current Koshi Pradesh, as well as parts of Sikkim, Darjeeling, and Kalimpong. The major groups within the Kirati are the Rai and Limbu. Since Limbu is already included in the discussion, it would be beneficial to rename the section to "Kirati" to encompass a broader range of groups, including Rai, Limbu,Limbu, Rai, Sunwar, Yakkha,etc . This change would reflect the diverse cultural landscape of Limbuwan. Additionally, consider adding the Sherpa community in northern Nepal.
 
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Elephants and Ivory are different resources. The former is for Asian elephants and can be used to create elephant-based military units. Ivory is used for African elephants, which can't be used for military units, and are only an economic resource.
What about the kind of ivory we might find in Greenland?
 
Just a bit of feedback and questions about the Sylhet region.
1. The Gaur kingdom was a Hindu kingdom in Sylhet that was defeated by the Lakhnauti Sultanate in the Muslim Conquest of Sylhet, I'm not sure if there was another kingdom with the same name but I don't believe that it was in modern Rajshahi and Rangpur. It bordered Laur and Jaintia, conquered Taraf but didn't exist anymore in 1337.
2. The current name of the location of Sylhet is Sylhet, but that was a British name anglicised from শিলহট (shilhôt, or Silhot). After the Muslim conquest of Sylhet, the city was often referred to as জালালাবাদ (jalalabad, or Jalalabad), named after Yemeni Sufi saint Hazrat Shah Jalal who converted Sylhet to Islam, so this could possibly be a dynamic name under a Muslim kingdom?
3. Speaking of Shah Jalal, he was still living in 1337 so is there any plans for content for him?
4. Also to do with Sylhet location's name, when it was ruled by the Gaur kingdom and previous Hindu kingdoms, it was known as শ্রিহট্ট (shrihôttô, or Srihatta), so possibly if it waa under a Hindu religion country, it could be renamed to that.
5. As mentioned before, Sylhet only came as an anglicised name under the British, so it should probably only be renamed to that or something similar when a colonial or other completely foreign power holds it.

But feedback aside, this is a wonderful map, can't wait to actually play this game.
 
While I have the opportunity, i'd like to share some feedback on the new map gfx style(s).

For the most part, i believe the 'land based' changes look great. The trade-goods (raw materials) map mode looks especially good. Regarding some of the criticism about legibility; it appears at present this is more the consequence of far zoom levels, rather than the clarity of the gfx stylisation itself.

I do however take issue with the new climate map mode. Compared to the previous design, this appears to both look worse stylistically, and reduce the clarity of information - it's harder to see what climate is where.

View attachment 1190311

My take on the new design (above) is to properly 'fill' the various climate areas with the appropriate colour, while also applying a subtle overlay to the sea zones. Very similar changes would also apply to the topography and vegetation map modes.

The other major concern I have is with the new gfx styles is with the 'sea based' changes. Specifically the over use of 'aggressive' drop-shadows. This can be seen in the locations, trade, and topography map modes. IMO the drop-shadows used to separate land from sea, and different sea 'zones' should use a much lower opacity. At present, these maps appear harsh, almost aggressive in there presentation. I would expect a softer touch here to improve their appearance significantly. My mock-ups below:

View attachment 1190316View attachment 1190317

Secondary note: in the same maps mentioned above, it seems as if contrast has been ramped up. This may help in some areas, but on the sea zones - the watercolour / patchwork texture has become much harsher, contributing to the issues described above.
I agree with the climate one
But the market map and location map are still a no.
 
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the mountain maps made me so excited for a chinese expedition in Jinchuan again . they are my favorite of the 10 grand expeditions launched by the Qing dynasty.
they had to capture a mountainous region full of layers and layers of forts
Conquest_of_the_mountain_Ripang_and_others.jpg

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Reconquer_the_little_Goldstreamland.jpg
Conquest_of_the_defence_tower_at_the_Luobowa_mountain.jpg
 
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I'm curious to see what you have in store to keep giants like this Delhi and China in check.
Oh and i can't wait to conquer India as random tage o see if it's like eu4
bnice trade goods and a lot or small wastelands
 
Can we please revert the non-political boundaries maps to being flat rather than having darker borders? They looked so aesthetically pleasing and clean previously, now they are harder to read and just visually blotchy. It's particularly bad for the development maps. I appreciate the desire for consistency between the presentation of the politics map and other map modes, but they have different purposes and I think the older style was better.
 
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I'm gonna be honest chief, I feel like these graphics are a downgrade in all aspects. I am aware I seen to be in the minority with this.
Biggest thing I dislike is how the colors just fade away to nothing as you get away from a border, the climate map being the biggest example of this. Sri Lanka looks Arid when it is clearly labeled Tropical.
 
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I'm gonna be honest chief, I feel like these graphics are a downgrade in all aspects. I am aware I seen to be in the minority with this.
Biggest thing I dislike is how the colors just fade away to nothing as you get away from a border, the climate map being the biggest example of this. Sri Lanka looks Arid when it is clearly labeled Tropical.
you mean this below ? the yellow shade inside the green ? thats not the biom color its just a coloring style that exist with all nations with dark tone colores .
as a carthograph myself you have to either do this or give the dark labels a glow so you can read them because a dark blue or dark green or red + black labels makes it hard to read .

we have yet to see the graphics and i personally expect an improvement over imperator because Ck3 and and vic3 were uglier than imperator on every graphical thing possible


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I'm curious to see what you have in store to keep giants like this Delhi and China in check.
Oh and i can't wait to conquer India as random tage o see if it's like eu4
bnice trade goods and a lot or small wastelands
china and delhi were prety much highest GDP since fall of the abbassids and would remain top 2 until a certain nation go plant seeds of discord and opium in them .
they have to be top 2 economies in the game and i think they are based on the fact they are the most developped nations so far.

for warfare i think they will be put in check by number of training centers you have . you could probably have human wave levies but just a 50k trained soldiers and if you only count on levies that would be a good way for self destruction since you gonna kill a lot of your own .

for income i think that would also be defined by number of admistrative building . something like we have seen in vic3 , this mean the more buildings you have the bigger the percentage of peoples who will be involved in tax revenue

so i believe the way to keep population in check is not to develop much , if they are always at war they are likely to suffer but if they are to unite and live in prosperity they will become a powerhouse .
i dont think they will steamroll though because as i said , size of army will be tied to trained peoples + equipments too i forgot this part . the only advantage they have is that they will be much better fighting long wars than a nation with only +1 million peoples who is treated by us as the green line
 
It's not easy, and its initial iteration, the situations for the Fall of Delhi and the Red Turbans Rebellion, coupled with the core game mechanic, made them extremely punishing (something we're finetuning through constant playtesting and iterating).
I'll tell ya' what. If you give me a key, I'll play the game and help you guys test it. And I'll do it for free. You can't ask for a better deal. :)
Seriously map looks amazing and good to hear from Trin. And yes, I will help you guys test the game for free.
 
I will say it once again: can we PLEASE just use the English names for cultures and religions instead of the native ones? In English, we do not put the accents on the Mahayana. I don't care if it's going to be the native language or English, but please just make it consistent.
 
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As far as breaking up animism in the region, here are some ideas to get started:

Munda cultures (Santal, Ho) and Oraon: Sarnaism
Bodo-Kachari peoples (Bodo, Dimasa, Rabha, Tiwa, Garo): Bathouism (specific to the Bodo, but seems to be the most well documented and the groups are culturally related)
Khasi culture: Niam Khasi
Tani culture: Donyi-Polo
Mizo culture: Mizo religion
To build on this
Mizo (Zo people): Sakhua.
Nepal: I don't know if shamanism is also a blob they want to break up, but Nepali shamanism could be called Dhaamee which is the term for the shamanic practice or Jhakri which is the name for the shamans themselves. For the tibetans+close relatives that live in Nepal, Bon should be present there as a minority. You could reasonably include the Sikkimese, Tamang, Magars, Sherpa, Khas, Gurung, Newar, Limbu, Kirati, etc in this category.
Limbu+Kirati: Mundhum. Could be lumped into Dhaamee.
Vedda: There's no name I can find, but the word Yaku means spirit so I would use that. They call their ancestors Nae Yaku and use Yaku for their gods.
Sikkimese: For the Lepecha they follow Mun, the Bhutia follow a version of Bon. Could be lumped into Dhaamee.
Malto: I can't find a direct reference to them practicing Sarnaism, but they probably do. Otherwise, they called their pantheon Gosain and their priests Demano
Monpa: This was a bit of a rabbit hole. It seems like the Monpa are a hybrid group between Sinotibetans and an indigenous group to the area. They may have practiced Bon like Sinotibetans or retained their indigenous faith in 1337. They probably did both. If their original faith is represented then their priests are called Yumin or Frami and they call their animistic spirits, Lu. (Some Elements of Animistic Beliefs among the BuddhistTribe of Dirang in Arunachal Pradesh by Tenzin Thekcho)
Karbi: They call their religion Hemphu-Mukrang (the two main figures) or Aronban (translating to ancient religion). It could be lumped into the similar Donyipolo
Chutia: Bathouism
Deori: Either include in Bathouism or its own religion Kundism
Garo: Could be Bathouism or be separate as Songsarek
Mishmi: Intayaism. The Mishmi languages might not even be sinotibetan so it's likely that their religion and culture in general are distinct from their neighbors.
Naga: They practice a bunch of different religions so you could justify keeping them 'animist.' If not Rangfrah is god in Tangsa and Paupaise is the ancestral religion of the Zeliangrong. There are a bunch of other names I've found for other Naga groups.
Jingpo: Their chief god is named Madai. They also practice nat worship so should probably be lumped into the Bamar/Rakhine sphere (Natism?), but since you're not including the indigenous faiths of Asia (Shendao, Musok, etc, except Shinto for some inexplicable reason???) just make the Jingpo Buddhist. This is likely the same for the other Kachin peoples, but can't find much about them.
Shan: Satsana Phi
Chakma: Couldn't find anything about them, but they are closely related to the Bamar, Rahkine and Kachin peoples so they should be either Natists or Buddhists like their cultural relatives
Gondi: Koyapunem
Andamanese: They call their shamans Okojumu and their chief god is Paluga. Since this group represents multiple ethnic groups I think it's better they be 'animist.'
Nicobarese: Their word for spirit is Shaitan. They call their shamans menluana. Since this group represents multiple ethnic groups I think it's better they be 'animist.'

Also wanted to note that Wikipedia says Islam took a while to take hold in the Maldives so maybe there should be a Buddhist minority there? I wish I could check the source, but I can't afford access, worth looking into further. "The Appropriation of Islam in the Maldives by Boris Wille"
 
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