Tinto Talks #13 - 22nd of May 2024

[Kong Rødskæg]

What does the process of changing my state religion look like.. So for example, if I played as Yuan but I wanted to turn it into an Orthodox christian empire, How would I go about making that happen?

 

[Bishweshwar]

@Johan I'm very, very late to this, but Sindh should definitely be majority Hindu in 1337 (with the exception of Dewal), with a significant Muslim and Buddhist minority. Below I'll give an explanation and my sources:

The Hindus of Sindh:

The Hindus of Sindh very pretty much dominant in the rural areas of Sindh, with a few Buddhists and very little Muslims being found in the region. The dominant sect here was Pashupata Shaivism, with Multan further to the North in Punjab being a large center for the sect's worshipers along the Indus. The Hindu-Muslim relationship in Sindh was less violent than it was further North in Punjab, and there aren't really any proven instances of large-scale forced conversion in Sindh, so despite Sindh being under Muslim rule for quite a while by this point Hindus were still the majority throughout Sindh, especially in the Northern areas of the region.

The Buddhists of Sindh (and Gujarat):

The Buddhists of Sindh and Gujarat were a very cosmopolitan people and were both mostly of the Saṃmitīya school, who were staunch, you could say aggressive, opponents to Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. They would often even burn Tantric scriptures and destroy Tantric statues. Their center of learning was in Valabhi University in Gujarat, and as such they were mostly concentrated in along the Western Coast of India (Sindh and Gujarat) compared to the inland Gangetic Valley who's Buddhists were a lot more pro-Tantric. In Sindh specifically, they were concentrated in the major cities of Southern Sindh, especially in the port city of Dewal. They were also present in various Gujarati coastal cities. The Saṃmitīya Buddhists of Sindh definitely shouldn't be classified as Mahayana, and though they aren't exactly identical to Theravada Buddhists, if you had to group them with one of the three main-branches the Theravada Buddhists would be the closest thing to group them with.

The Muslims of Sindh:

Conversation of Hindus to Islam was a very slow process (even in 1941, Sindh would only be 71% Muslim and would still remain 26% Hindu), so Sindh would be no means be majority Muslim yet. However, there would definitely be a significant Muslim minority composed of immigrants from the West and newer Indian converts.

Conclusion:

Northern Sindh should be roughly made around 80% Hindu, 10% Buddhist, and 10% Muslim as a whole, with Buddhists being pretty much absent from the rural areas of the North and mostly just concentrated in the cities.

Southern Sindh should be roughly made around 50% Hindu, 40% Buddhist, and 10% Muslim as a whole, with Buddhists and Muslims being more prevalent in urban areas, though here Buddhism would be present even in the rural areas among the tribal/pastoral Buddhist Jats. In the coastal city of Dewal (modern-day Karachi), they may have outnumbered the Hindus and formed the dominant religion.

Sources:

Islam in South Asia: A Short History (Jamal Malik)
Religion and Society in Arab Sind (Derryl N. MacLean)

 

[Draky]

has pdx talked about who these blue guys are?

Spoiler

are they jews? Or some proto-hussites, perhaps early followers of Wycliffe (who many would argue has spurred the original Hussite movement)

 

[viola]

has pdx talked about who these blue guys are?

Spoiler

View attachment 1153942

are they jews? Or some proto-hussites, perhaps early followers of Wycliffe (who many would argue has spurred the original Hussite movement)

Probably Hussites of some sort, the geographical area is in Czechia.

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

Probably Hussites of some sort, the geographical area is in Czechia.

PDX said they are Jews. Jan Hus was not born yet AFAIK

 

[alopezme]

Great job. I remember that Frane had a long period of religious wars with a strong catolic league.... No less than 8 wars before the Edict of Nantes was issued.

I seriously think it should be implemented in some way, as the HRE religious wars maybe..... This also will prevent France to always blob everyone.

 

[nyetflix2]

@Johan I'm very, very late to this, but Sindh should definitely be majority Hindu in 1337 (with the exception of Dewal), with a significant Muslim and Buddhist minority. Below I'll give an explanation and my sources:

The Hindus of Sindh:

The Hindus of Sindh very pretty much dominant in the rural areas of Sindh, with a few Buddhists and very little Muslims being found in the region. The dominant sect here was Pashupata Shaivism, with Multan further to the North in Punjab being a large center for the sect's worshipers along the Indus. The Hindu-Muslim relationship in Sindh was less violent than it was further North in Punjab, and there aren't really any proven instances of large-scale forced conversion in Sindh, so despite Sindh being under Muslim rule for quite a while by this point Hindus were still the majority throughout Sindh, especially in the Northern areas of the region.

The Buddhists of Sindh (and Gujarat):

The Buddhists of Sindh and Gujarat were a very cosmopolitan people and were both mostly of the Saṃmitīya school, who were staunch, you could say aggressive, opponents to Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. They would often even burn Tantric scriptures and destroy Tantric statues. Their center of learning was in Valabhi University in Gujarat, and as such they were mostly concentrated in along the Western Coast of India (Sindh and Gujarat) compared to the inland Gangetic Valley who's Buddhists were a lot more pro-Tantric. In Sindh specifically, they were concentrated in the major cities of Southern Sindh, especially in the port city of Dewal. They were also present in various Gujarati coastal cities. The Saṃmitīya Buddhists of Sindh definitely shouldn't be classified as Mahayana, and though they aren't exactly identical to Theravada Buddhists, if you had to group them with one of the three main-branches the Theravada Buddhists would be the closest thing to group them with.

The Muslims of Sindh:

Conversation of Hindus to Islam was a very slow process (even in 1941, Sindh would only be 71% Muslim and would still remain 26% Hindu), so Sindh would be no means be majority Muslim yet. However, there would definitely be a significant Muslim minority composed of immigrants from the West and newer Indian converts.

Conclusion:

Northern Sindh should be roughly made around 80% Hindu, 10% Buddhist, and 10% Muslim as a whole, with Buddhists being pretty much absent from the rural areas of the North and mostly just concentrated in the cities.

Southern Sindh should be roughly made around 50% Hindu, 40% Buddhist, and 10% Muslim as a whole, with Buddhists and Muslims being more prevalent in urban areas, though here Buddhism would be present even in the rural areas among the tribal/pastoral Buddhist Jats. In the coastal city of Dewal (modern-day Karachi), they may have outnumbered the Hindus and formed the dominant religion.

Sources:

Islam in South Asia: A Short History (Jamal Malik)
Religion and Society in Arab Sind (Derryl N. MacLean)

Good on you for gathering some sources. Keep it on hand for the India map post, that's where they'll look for adjustments to be made to the area.

Btw should there be Buddhist minorities elsewhere in India/South Asia?

 

[minghunag]

How can it be that everyone in China believes in Buddhism? That's far-fetched. If can't find a better term to represent Chinese folk beliefs, I think might as well keep using Confucianism.

 

[Clyde Wallach]

That screenshot on Christianity would seem to indicate that only the historical religions would appear in the game, and the text below that they will have historically relevant modifiers. I assume there are no random or customizable modifiers in addition to those. So you can't have Bokononism pop up around the Aral Sea in 1338, and you can't have a Lutheranism that appears in northern Germany in the first 1/3 of the 16th century and just so happens to ban the consumption of beer. That's not the the approach I'd have taken, as a butterfly effect enthusiast, but you've obviously designed more games than I have and know what people want. That said, I'd make 2 suggestions:

(1) Include a feature in the game that makes it easy for all players, not just modders, to create their own religions, complete with their own symbols, modifiers, mechanics, and (approximate or precise) places and times of origin, and upload them to a game.

(2) Anglicanism is not like the other Protestant faiths. Anglicanism began with a political separation from Rome and only afterwards accumulated theological differences from Catholicism. And if England could do it, why not others? Now, I'm not saying that every single Catholic ruler should have the option of doing what Henry VIII did. But a few of the major ones, perhaps? Have a handful of hypothetical Anglican-like religions in the game to spice up the diplomacy. If a particularly ruthless French king gets upset with the Papacy, he can reject papal authority and proclaim the Gallican Church.

Are Unitarianism, Baptism, Yarsanism (which would appear relatively soon), Sabbateanism, Methodism, and Karaism in the game?

How will you simulate the rise of the Uniate churches between the 16th and 18th centuries? I'm thinking the easiest way is by incorporating the IO feature and having schisms, or takeovers followed by schisms, in the Eastern churches, leading to the creation of new Catholic IOs. Though the limitation of this approach is that it can't easily deal with Uniate churches appearing at the local, sub-IO level (such as the Union of Brest).

 

[Abnormalmind]

(2) Anglicanism is not like the other Protestant faiths. Anglicanism began with a political separation from Rome and only afterwards accumulated theological differences from Catholicism. And if England could do it, why not others? Now, I'm not saying that every single Catholic ruler should have the option of doing what Henry VIII did. But a few of the major ones, perhaps? Have a handful of hypothetical Anglican-like religions in the game to spice up the diplomacy. If a particularly ruthless French king gets upset with the Papacy, he can reject papal authority and proclaim the Gallican Church.

Are Unitarianism, Baptism, Yarsanism (which would appear relatively soon), Sabbateanism, Methodism, and Karaism in the game?

Unless the game is strictly focused on historic railroading, you’re definitely right—Anglicanism shouldn’t be present in 1337. For Anglicanism to even be considered, a complex situation must exist in England during the German Reformation. Quite complex. I’m interested to see if the game will stick to specific religions or allow for a variety of belief systems. For example, EU4 starts with the Czech Reformation, although for some odd reason, making everyone Hussite causes the game to get stuck in the Age of Discovery.

 

[Clyde Wallach]

How can it be that everyone in China believes in Buddhism? That's far-fetched. If can't find a better term to represent Chinese folk beliefs, I think might as well keep using Confucianism.

I'm of the opinion that we need a separate religion to represent the mixture of Buddhism, Confucianism, Daoism, and Han Chinese folk religion. But I also have no idea what to call it. Well, no idea that I'd describe as serious; I did think of calling it Hǔ Xī Sān Xiào.

An alternative would be dividing the faith of the Han Chinese into 2 religions, Mahayana Buddhism (obviously not exclusive to them) and Shéndào (meant to represent Daoism mixed with folk religion; Confucianism would count as a political ideology for the sake of simplicity). Countries ruling over Han Chinese locations would have the option of promoting one at the expense of the other, or even promoting other forms of Buddhism (like Tibetan) over Mahayana. The problem with this approach - besides its failure to deal with the religious syncretism common outside the Abrahamic religions - and the reason I don't fully endorse it , is that I have no idea how the 2 religions would be distributed throughout the Han Chinese culture zones, or even which of them was more widespread.

The 2nd approach, if adopted, should also be extended to Japan, where you'd have Mahayana and Shinto. A Japanese player should be able to engage in a policy of mixing the 2 religions (shinbutsu shūgō), mixing them partly (shinbutsu kakuri), separating them (shinbutsu bunri), or cleansing Japan of Mahayana (haibutsu kishaku).

No idea about religion in Korea, Vietnam or the Ryukyus.

 

[eddin2]

I'm of the opinion that we need a separate religion to represent the mixture of Buddhism, Confucianism, Daoism, and Han Chinese folk religion. But I also have no idea what to call it. Well, no idea that I'd describe as serious; I did think of calling it Hǔ Xī Sān Xiào.

An alternative would be dividing the faith of the Han Chinese into 2 religions, Mahayana Buddhism (obviously not exclusive to them) and Shéndào (meant to represent Daoism mixed with folk religion; Confucianism would count as a political ideology for the sake of simplicity). Countries ruling over Han Chinese locations would have the option of promoting one at the expense of the other, or even promoting other forms of Buddhism (like Tibetan) over Mahayana. The problem with this approach - besides its failure to deal with the religious syncretism common outside the Abrahamic religions - and the reason I don't fully endorse it , is that I have no idea how the 2 religions would be distributed throughout the Han Chinese culture zones, or even which of them was more widespread.

The 2nd approach, if adopted, should also be extended to Japan, where you'd have Mahayana and Shinto. A Japanese player should be able to engage in a policy of mixing the 2 religions (shinbutsu shūgō), mixing them partly (shinbutsu kakuri), separating them (shinbutsu bunri), or cleansing Japan of Mahayana (haibutsu kishaku).

No idea about religion in Korea, Vietnam or the Ryukyus.

Interesting approach.

While reading your idea, I thought about harmonisation from EU4, but represented like wheel with all harmonised religions.

During the course of the game, you could harmonize other religions over time, if you fullfill certain conditions, but at the beginning of the game, only already "accepted religions", should be harmonised.

The wheel of religions would represent how dominant certain religions is/are in the Chinese (and other Far East nations) society, affected by decisions, laws, pops and events, and, consequently, impacting certain societal values.

It still leaves problem of the religious representations in the provinces and locations, but I don't have an idea about that.

 

[Clyde Wallach]

Interesting approach.

While reading your idea, I thought about harmonisation from EU4, but represented like wheel with all harmonised religions.

During the course of the game, you could harmonize other religions over time, if you fullfill certain conditions, but at the beginning of the game, only already "accepted religions", should be harmonised.

The wheel of religions would represent how dominant certain religions is/are in the Chinese (and other Far East nations) society, affected by decisions, laws, pops and events, and, consequently, impacting certain societal values.

It still leaves problem of the religious representations in the provinces and locations, but I don't have an idea about that.

That would be an interesting mechanic for Christianity as well, allowing for the representation of historical and alt-historical developments like the temporary Catholic-Orthodox reconciliation, the (19th century) union of Lutheran and Reformed churches in certain German states, the attempts to bring early Lutheranism back into the Catholic fold, the various Uniate churches, and the Utraquist faction of the Hussites making peace with Rome.

 

[The Black Bishop]

No, those are Bogomils; we don't have any Hellenic pop in the game.

To my knowledge there should be a decent number of surviving Paulicans nearby in what is modern day Bulgaria. Which would at game start still be distinct but still heavily influencing the Bogomils

 

[Nosillew]

How can it be that everyone in China believes in Buddhism? That's far-fetched. If can't find a better term to represent Chinese folk beliefs, I think might as well keep using Confucianism.

Perhaps the term Shenism or Shendao, ultimately this term is also possibly extended to refer to the native religions of Korea and Vietnam in one generic religion (although I want Muism and Thanism to be represented separately), these religious traditions were deeply influenced by native Chinese beliefs, even the Japanese word Shinto derived from Shendao.